Ruined engine? .. too hot.

[Bill e]

Hello gentlemen,

Borrowing your expertise in tech and troubleshooting... please. ;]

New here, fairly new little dodge truck owner... year and a half.


My problem, a wicked overheating due to loss of coolant while highway driving.

A lower split hose, out of sight under the power steering unit.

Thought it was the water pump, as it has been squealing a bit, when first starting, due to lack of lubricants from lack of antifreeze.

The bearing on the water pump was still fairly tight, not too much play.

So while driving on a warm summer day, heat guage crept up, eventually smoke from unger the hood from engine grime burning off, the valves clattering, then had to drive on the side of the fast highway traffic to limp into a village... about five minutes.

Knowing the engine was hot, hot, got parked, steam and smoke when I cracked the hood.

Let it cool ten minutes, got water, started pouring in, saw the leak from around the back of water pump, [now know that was the hose split.]

Waited another 15 minutes and decided to try it, the engine didn't sound great, but after holding down the gas and cranking alot the engine flared to life.

The 2L was still alive! It idled so-so but I shut it down after a minute or so.

Left the truck for two days.

I had a ten minute drive to get the truck back home and carried 5 gallons of water. Two stops later while adding water, made it home with a little overheating... not bad.

Here are some questions coming, after I did some work.

A new water pump had already been ordered, so I put that in, new lower hose, new thermostat. I had the timing belt off, the big belt, did not fool with the little one... they are both in good shape.

Now even though I did mark the upper cam gear and was careful reinstalling the belt as it had come off, it almost seems it is off by a tooth.

Reassembled, took for a test drive, ten minutes.

Symptoms:

It has ''flat acceleration'', much less than before the overheating, is under-powered.

It smokes now when starting... never did before.

It backfires when taking foot off the gas, around 30 to 40 mph. ... third gear, from excess gas/fuel combusting, is my guess. Advanced timing?

Finally running hot, antifreeze bubbling, rad burping.


So what do you think?


Has the engine been damaged much, valves screwed up, compression weakened?

Is it perhaps just the timing off?

I need to put that belt back on properly this time. I know where some marks are but not quite sure how to time it perfectly.
Crankshaft in conjunction with cam, simply line up notches?

Do not have a manual.

Love the truck, good fuel economy, all the power[or had] all the power I need.
There is a little over 200,000 k on her.

Any tips, hints, help from you guys would be greatly appreciated, have the front pulleys off now, t-belt back off and wondering where or if I should buy another radiator as that is now leaking a bit!

All the best,

Bill e
p.s. 2.0 L , 1988 five speed. Not sure what number/letters represent this engine.

[Bill e]

add:

Lined up the timing marks top and bottom, truck starts fine now, sounds great, idles good, does not smoke when I gun it a bit. When a better rad is installed will try a road test to see if I have better performance and the pep is back in the engine.

May have answered some of my own questions. Onwards.

[camoit]

Do a compression check before going any further. We need to rule out a bad head gasket. These trucks are easy to blow the head up on if they over heat.

[Bill e]

Will do a test, see what she reads. Thanks for the heads up.

ALSO

Looking for a radiator now as well. The 2.0L shows a rad width of either 13 inches or 15, the one in the truck is almost 20 inches across and 16 iches deep. hmmmm.

Wonder what other radiators I could install in place of the old one? Like from another make of car or truck?

Could be a heating/cooling section in this forum, will look around. ,.,

[BradMph]

There are many radiators you could probably use. Walk thru a wrecking and as long as your inlet and outlet are in the same spot and can fabricate a little you will have all the choices you want. If I remember right, I got mine from a chevy in a yard. I then installed relay with an electric fan from an oldsmobile achieva using a fan kit with dial setting. Been working fine ever since.

[camoit]

OK not sure what was going on here but the Quick Reply box was not working on this thread.
In the first post there was
this text line: p.s. 2.0 L , 1988 five speed. Not sure what number/letters represent this engine.
The text line was hidden inside the box described below.

It was in a box all by it's self at the bottom and I could type in there. Quite strange,, SO I removed the box and edited the last line of his post. Now it's working again. IDK what or how that happened. If anybody has a problem with the Quick Reply box please send me a PM. Camoit.


As for the over heating. Make sure you have a fan shroud. If you don't have one then get one from a Montero. It's metal and will help cool it down.

[BradMph]

OK not sure what was going on here but the Quick Reply box was not working on this thread.
In the first post there was
this text line: p.s. 2.0 L , 1988 five speed. Not sure what number/letters represent this engine.
The text line was hidden inside the box described below.

It was in a box all by it's self at the bottom and I could type in there. Quite strange,, SO I removed the box and edited the last line of his post. Now it's working again. IDK what or how that happened. If anybody has a problem with the Quick Reply box please send me a PM. Camoit.


As for the over heating. Make sure you have a fan shroud. If you don't have one then get one from a Montero. It's metal and will help cool it down.

Strange, When I replied I also had an issue and had to switch to advanced mode to reply to thread

[Bill e]

Did a 'dry' rudimentary check, compressions ran from 100 to a 70 to an 80 and a 90. Seems low 'eh, sounds okay though and the plugs all looked good, none wet, all brown to tan.

Why am I taking ALL THE PLUGS out? Would I not get a truer reading by testing one at a time with the other plugs in?

Also testing with rad out and just the timing belt on everything else is unhooked. Should I be?

[BradMph]

Check the Manual section of the web site here. It will guide you down the right direction. You seem to have some problems with low compression.

Any compression value below 100 PSI means internal mechanical Engine trouble.

If Your Car Does Start, the very first thing you'll notice is that the Compression values you wrote down for each Cylinder are slightly different from one another. This is normal.

What is NOT normal is if the values vary too much. The cool thing is that we can find out if the variations in the values, you wrote down, indicate a problem (with that Cylinder) or not.

The rule of thumb is that they can not vary more than 15% from each other and if they do... you're gonna' have a genuine Misfire Condition on your hands or possibly a No Start Condition (if more than one cylinder is affected).

How do you figure this out?... This is how you do it:

1 Grab a calculator and multiply the highest compression reading that you recorded by .15.
So, let’s say that cylinder #4 gave you the highest reading of 170 PSI. Well 170 X .15 gives you 26 (25.5 rounded off).

2 Now, the next step is to subtract 26 from 170... which gives us 144 PSI.

3 So then, 144 PSI is the lowest possible compression reading that any one of the rest of the engine cylinders can have. Any compression reading below this.. and that engine cylinder will misfire.

To make better sense of the above calculation... let's say that my Mitsubishi produced the following Compression Test results:
•Cylinder #1 175 PSI.
•Cylinder #2 170 PSI.
•Cylinder #3 165 PSI .
•Cylinder #4 120 PSI .

The next step is to do the math: 175 x .15= 26, 175-26= 149. So, now I know that Cylinder #4 is the one causing the Misfire!!

You can squirt a little oil into each cylinder and if it gets higher PSI reading, your rings are toast.

[Bill e]

Great info Brad... and folks. You are a walking manual.

Did a truer test, better tester, better conditions as per manual.

Now reading from the rad end to the firewall.

110-109-108-102... much to my relief, not bad for a 25 year old engine.

Plus I had to dump in a liter or more of 20 w 15 motor oil in as I did not have any 5 w 30.

Doing wet test next, will post what goes on with the rings.

[camoit]

At lease it's evenly low. But you did heat the crap out of it. That probably did something to the pistons and head. Melted the valve seals or fused the rings to the pistons. It should be at least 120+ PSI dry cranking. If it was 70 then there is some major problems. It's fine to test with the plugs out. Does not change anything.
But you also say you needed to dump in a large amount of oil. I'm sorry to say it but I would rebuild it. Depending on your cash flow you might be able to get away with an Okey rebuild. Just drop in pistons and rings and run the crap out of it. Pick up another engine and build it up while killing off the one you have. But if you have the money then do it the correct way. Have a short or long built up for you.

[mopar_ja]

or the old school way no more than 1 to 3 lbs. difference between each cylinder and a max of 5 lbs. difference from highest to lowest.

[Bill e]

good extra info guys, I like old school also like ''pick up another one'' ... idea.

It has used about 3/4 liter of oil per change since I bought it, so used to adding. I have been using Lucas for older engines the last few changes and will likely continue.
It doesn't smoke going down the road, if it was would have took it off the road long ago.
See what happens once I get a new rad in it and drive... what damage that may have resulted from the heat up.

By the way what is a good ''additive'' for older worn engines? Honey, risone, lucas, or maybe something better on the market?

Oil test last night showed some good and bad. From the fire wall out.
160-same-same-130.
First reading tells me the ring is bad/stuck/welded as well as the last reading... would you agree?
What other factors would give me a high ''oil test'' reading?

[camoit]

So what you are saying on the last "wet" test your compression was: 160-109-108-130

If that was the wet test then the 2 low ones may be swapping compression gas between the cylinders from a bad head gasket. If you do a CLT, (compression Leek Test) you can find where the air is going. You will need a compressor and your ear. With air going into the cylinder you listen and feel around the intake. tail pipe and valve cover. It will be coming out some where. You will here it or feel it.

CLT tester

6450

[Bill e]

''was: 160-109-108-130?'' yep,,, correct.
Never heard of that test, will try it.Have a cleaner/blower nozzle will feed that into the compression tester hose, screw it into the spark plug hole, inject cylinder with air.
Was going to do the basic, bubbles or big burp from the rad fluid as the car runs for a head gasket leak.
Never seen water/sludge on the oil stick or cap.

Thanks for the 'air' tip.

[BradMph]

Such low compression and only burning just under a quart of oil between changes means your compression rings are history, but strangely your oil rings are still doing a decent job holding oil from passing through them which seems about right for these trucks. Checking plugs can give you an idea how cylinders of your engine are doing as well, but your going to have to give them a chance to show evidence after such a horrific overheating. The older Mitsubishi engines that came in our trucks can not handle overheating at all. Among other parts of these engines like Camoit mentioned that can be effected by overheating, you can bet that these parts were effected. Valve guides seals will harden among every other rubber part in the engine and the effects may not be immediate, but they will fail. Once you start burning more oil, your cat will clog and cause your engine all kinds of discomfort. Sort of like shoving a cork up an arsk and trying to take a dump.
If your engine is running after all this overheating and bad compression readings, consider yourself luckier then most by far. I know by experience since I have replaced 4 heads even though I pulled over as soon as I could. It all is to blame on bad inferior casting materials and poor designing.
You got lucky, but your engines future does not need a crystal ball to foretell. While you still have a running vehicle that can drive to a wrecking yard, start looking for replacement or rebuild quotes. If you wait, you could be offlined longer then you want since our parts are not available as they were a few years ago.

[Bill e]

head gasket blown ,,, no cat in this one,,,

[Bill e]

So to add to the sad tale, after the new rad, oil. filter, stat, hose, hours of labour, took her for a short spin, worked great, sounded good.
But then the rad was building big pressure, boiling and bubbling in the run off jar with a strong smell of gas. Stopped after five minutes added some water, drove and parked. Maybe fifteen minutes slow driving.

Went to start it, had to wait a half hour after many attempts she finally went.
Drove three miles back home, cracked the hood.

Oil cap had a foamy sludge build up already, so did the stick, didn't take a brain to figure out there is a major prestone internal leak.

Out the bucks for two jugs of prestone, 50 buck oil change... ruined. A brand new rad in a crap engine.

Priced a head gasket set, and just a head gasket... but is the head warped, will it need planing... most likely ... and so on

Son of a B.tch.

Found another 2.0L standard... 675 bucks taxes in plus shipping.

215,000 k, been in the truck, in the yard since June 2005.

If this engine is any good, will the sitting for years screw the head gasket... OR anything elsed?

Thought to add another chapter . Oh my.

[Bill e]

Thinking this old thread ran out of gas... or interest. Try another realm in the forum to ask further... .

[BradMph]

When my overflow bottle got pressurized and started making gurgling noises and stuff, my head gasket was done. I got the bottle so pressurized one day that the overflow bottle was ballooning it round, lol. I'm sure if I popped it open it would of shot hot water all over the place. It had clogged it's vent hole somehow, funniest thing to see such a hard plastic bottle as that misshapen by the pressure.

[Bill e]

ah, there is life after all. Still in a quandary... what to do? Head gasket, head gasket kit ? different engine?
Just feel I would be taking a chance pulling the head, money, time and then still end up with bad rings, valve seals, etc. Maybe not. Opinions?

What about steel seal, bar's? Anybody have faith in it? Warped head wouldn't seal, not too mention those sealers only seal parts of the gaskets, not where the real leaks are lurking.

Should I chance gumming up the cooling system, maybe not have it work at all?

If an engine sits for eight years what will those idle years do to the innards? Screw the head gasket?

[BradMph]

lmao Bill, Just do it my friend...you got us on the edge of our seats with this. Just grab some tools and start peeling that thing apart like it owes you money. No more procrastinating...and I know procrastinating...I do it too! ;)

[Bill e]

oh man... you are really going to make me do this? well... okay then, had to take a break and actually earn some sort of living. What's another 200 bucks, 'eh.

[Bill e]

Was gonna throw some pics up, looks like not an option.

Grabbed tools, exhaust manifold is off.

Surprised that 95% of the nuts held long enough to thread off AND of course one had to strip, 11 mm would not tap on, so the dremel zipped that off flush to the manifold.

Some you guys live in salt free, rust free zones, not so here, we have 7 months of salted roads, ice, slush, and rotted vehicles.
As this little guy is or was, I have welded and pounded just about every inch of this truck to knock off a thick coat of rotten metal and then added pieces to the frame.... and wherever else it was needed.

Many would have ''pushed the truck over the bank'' long ago. But I am a stubborn codger.

[BradMph]

lol, no pushing these trucks over cliffs...it could hurt someone.
Get some Maguire's wax and find some place where they are re-asphalting and drive that baby thru it like crazy. Free undercoating.
Actually some of that rust killer paint is pretty good. Just hit up those bad spots and it will turn it to primer, Then undercoat. Ratcheted open end wrenches are pretty helpful on these trucks. Glad to see you finally getting her fixed, she will appreciate it.

[Bill e]

ctd. ...

[Bill e]

manual now accessible.

[Andy 2]

There are rebuilt engines you can order from the web like this one http://chicagoengines.com/engines/mitsubishi/DD7704-1608.aspx from Chicago Engines. (Don't go by the pic) or from Rock Auto here, http://www.rockauto.com/?a=G-longblock. The problem with getting a used engine from a wreckers that has been sitting for a long time is the rings may be frozen to the pistons and the valve seals and every other neoprene/rubber seal will probably be hardened up. You would be no better off. You may find ordering one from the U.S. is cheaper than rebuilding yours even with shipping. I had my 2.6 rebuilt in January and that cost me around $3k. I found out later that I could have got one from Chicago for around $1600 + core charge (which you can get back) + around $400 for shipping so its worth checking into.

[Bill e]

There are rebuilt engines you can order from the web like this one http://chicagoengines.com/engines/mitsubishi/DD7704-1608.aspx from Chicago Engines. (Don't go by the pic) or from Rock Auto here, http://www.rockauto.com/?a=G-longblock. The problem with getting a used engine from a wreckers that has been sitting for a long time is the rings may be frozen to the pistons and the valve seals and every other neoprene/rubber seal will probably be hardened up. You would be no better off. You may find ordering one from the U.S. is cheaper than rebuilding yours even with shipping. I had my 2.6 rebuilt in January and that cost me around $3k. I found out later that I could have got one from Chicago for around $1600 + core charge (which you can get back) + around $400 for shipping so its worth checking into.








Great thanks for that. Will take a browse through Andy.

Was planning on looking state side eventually if things get serious with regards to saving the little beast.

Yep thinking on the long time sitting engines, stuck in a couple like that in my foolish youth and watched the smoke fly as they fired up... .

[Bill e]

Those racheting box ends sure would come in handy to access that fifth hidden carb bolt, don't think an extension is going to fit in there... if I even knew where the dang bolt head was at.[?]

Man'oh, that is one bulky, busy little carb for a simple 2 L four... oh give me the simplicity of my '50 Farmall draft carburater.

[Bill e]

Standing on tippy-toes. managed to squeeze my super sized forearm into the crevice to allow the intake to eventually pull free of the head, carb stayed intact. Head comes off tomorrow.

Owned a VW Westfailia fitted with a 1600cc VW "upright"... had to be part monkey to work on it... deja vu...

[BradMph]

Pull the carb and just pour fuel from a gallon milk jug down that hole:lmao:

[Bill e]

Head off, warped a bit, gasket looks pretty good. More than a skim of oil sitting on top of piston next to #1.

Green anti freeze in places, back piston has the most on it.

Bought a head gasket set, now I am considering not, possibly returning. That amount of oil sitting in the #3 cylinder well has me worried. Not sure about the valve seals, shape of valves and other unknowns. Not sure if the heads worth taking apart.

By-gone days a fella would just re-shoe the horse to get under way.

[camoit]

the antifreeze on the piston after pulling off the head is normal. But just replacing the valve seals will fix the oil problem. You can have the head checked out at a machine shop for a couple of bucks. Might be worth it.

[Bill e]

Yippur, expected to see a ''hot mess, honey boo-boo" antifreeze mess, the oil? ... not so much.
But as you say camoit, the seals might just be worth it, so onwards and upwards.

Think I am going to resurface the head myself with a glass surface and glued down sandpaper, or pay the 40 to get 'er done down the road by a pro. 'You see I am a poor critter, rich with life but a dusty, thin, whimpering wallet stuffed in my greasy jeans arse pocket... yells, ''POOR.''

Gotta move a valve out of the way to sand the head. How am I going to reassemble and have the distributor and timing and all the stuff be right?

** SEE-NEW ALBUM

[Bill e]

With the rocker assembly off, it is fairly evident that the camshaft would be placed back in at re-assembly time, the same way it came out and that would solve the last question there ol' Bill'o... jeesh.
Just sitting here thinking, it has been about 15 years since I messed with rockers and the like... there been a lot'a beer cracked since then, not too mention lobsters.

[camoit]

We do have a manual you can download and use for reference. Look in the manual section> over 216 manuals> montero MM truck.

[Bill e]

6584 Here is the lower hose that split during a three hour summer hot drive which now has me stuck 300 kilos from my home. After waiting for back ordered parts, money then more parts... do dads, getting on 5 weeks.

Managed to upload an album, [thought it was up yesterday] to finally show the progress. Any further input and forensic eyeballing always appreciated from you folks . Can't seem to upload any more attachments... album will show the rest.

[Bill e]

I'd rather have a BJ!

Now with the latest. The head is in such poor shape, so says the engine rebuild boys, that it needs a VALVE JOB, hmmmm, let's see, BJ vs. VJ? VJ vs. BJ? Well I know what'd I would prefer... S.O.B.!

Another 250 bucks with tax... so far, unless they phone with more cheery news.

UPDATE! UPDATE! THEY JUST PHONED ME AS I TYPED THIS... THE EFF'N HEAD IS CRACKED, FRIDAY THE 13TH, oh sweet muther' of god. I am sunk.

[Bill e]

I'd rather have a BJ!

Now with the latest. The head is in such poor shape, so says the engine rebuild boys, that it needs a VALVE JOB, hmmmm, let's see, BJ vs. VJ? VJ vs. BJ? Well I know what'd I would prefer... S.O.B.!

Another 250 bucks with tax... so far, unless they phone with more cheery news.

UPDATE! UPDATE! THEY JUST PHONED ME AS I TYPED THIS... THE EFF'N HEAD IS CRACKED, FRIDAY THE 13TH, oh sweet muther' of god. I am sunk.

This the part where you are supposed to come in and hug me... isn't it?

Alright she's all done in. Complete waste of time money and hand cleaner.

Took a hammer and a grinder to the head, beat the crap out of it, sold it for scrap... 7 bucks., wow!

When there was still hope, went over to the North American wide, famous Armstrong engine re-builders, known for many a racing engine.
Gave Doug the nonrefundable head gasket set, the parts he needed. He phoned me three days later, on Friday the 13th actually, with a sad voice said, '' the heads ruined'', found a crack and it went internally, no way to use it.
Even charged me 40 bucks for the bad news.

Lost track, hmmm 500 bucks and 40 hours labour invested to find out the truck will sit in a snow drift soon and continue to rust.

Should of tipped it over the cliff.

Yep pretty bitter...

yeah, yeah, I know, I know,

" just suck it up, Butter'cup!".

Picture attached.

May return some day with another 50, won't be soon.


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