Silent Shaft Belt Replacement Problems

[amos_dugger]

I am doing a head gasket job on my 1994 mitsu mighty max 2wd, its all stock and in pretty good shape. I am having problems with the silent shaft so to speak. I am on the part where I take the plug out of the side of the block and stick something in to lock up the shaft. I am unable to get anything into this hole to lock it up. I have talked to several people and had a couple look at it. I have not had any luck. It looks like something has been broke off in the hole where the screwdriver goes... I have tried turning the oil cog a full rotation, still can not get anything in the whole further than about 1/4 inch.... anybody with any help please let me know....

[camoit]

How far in does the screw driver go?
When you put it in there and turn the shaft can you feel it turning on the screw driver. The counter shaft has a flat side so you may need to turn it about 180 degrees. If worse comes to worse you can always set the cam and crank and put the belt onto the shaft last while holding it in position.

[royster]

The silent shaft driven by a belt has no access hole. The "screwdriver hole" the manuals refer to are located near the starter motor, driver's side on the engine.

You should be able to stick a screwdriver into the driver's side hole...with the shaft positioned correctly...every bit of 3 inches. However, this is only on the right-hand side (facing the engine). The left-hand 'access' is a screw, and it only allows access to the shaft's bearing. If this is the hole you are referring to in your original post, (it seems to be) then it makes sense you'd only get in 1/4".

As I recall, the left-side silent shaft can only position one way (with the timing mark): it is the oil-pump shaft that is crucial for getting right, as it can position differently, but only one position is correct.

Perhaps some of the photos in my thread will be of use to you, see the menu
http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2956-Roy-s-Garage-90-2-4-4G64-5-spd-D-50

[camoit]

The one on the driver side is about 5 inches from the back of the block just above the oil pan. It'll look like a pipe plug.

[BradMph]

To accurately have the oil cog in the right position with the other gear markings on compression stroke, aren't you suppose to spin it by hand and it will sort of counter weight itself and roll itself into a position very close to the marking. If it doesn't It gets a 180 turn and then give it a light spin again by hand and let it go to see how it counter balances the movement in relations to the time mark..

[amos_dugger]

OK, Thanks to all but a big THANKS to ROYSTON.. I have already got this thing together, just today... have not got it started yet, but I believe I will be ok, but just in case, if Im off, now I know the hole is on the drivers side of the block... who would have thought.

[royster]

Glad to have helped.

I agonized over this detail for a long time before I figured it out. Those Haynes books are horrible in some procedures...not sure if the Chilton is any better but I will get one. One of the great benefits of this forum is hands-on experience.

Let us know how the repair turned out, Amos.

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/3161-4G64-2-4-Photographic-Engine-Reference

[amos_dugger]

Yeah the Chilton is no better. I have referenced the small manual, the large book that covers all vehicles, online references like autozone.com and they are all the same..... WRONG! So again thank you! OK, now... Since I already had it back together when I found this website and became a member, I figured I would go ahead and see if I was close. Now my new question, or problem... The truck wont start, or even try to start. I have spark at the plugs, and fuel at the fuel rail... but it wont even hit. I'm assuming this is timing related. I hope the ECU somehow smart enough to know the oil pump is out of time. All marks are correct... but as I turn the motor over by hand I notice that the marks are not on for every rotation of the cam... is that normal? I think its every 3rd rotation of the cam, that all marks are on... If the ECU is not smart enough or isn't equipped to automatically not let it run, then I have trouble. And if it is, wouldn't it kill the spark? Can I get to the correct plug without taking off the intake manifold? So lost on this one, I consider myself descent mechanic, but this is killing me! Thanks for everything

[royster]

Without looking at Roy's Garage, I don't remember if it's every 2 turns, the left side marks line up, and every 6 they all match up. I'll edit here in a moment.

EDIT:

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2974-90-2-4-oil-pump-replacement?p=26822&viewfull=1#post26822
Check your timing belt syncronisation by turning the crankshaft clockwise six complete cycles (revolutions). The camshaft, crankshaft and oil pump timing marks will all align every 2 revolutions. The left-hand silent shaft will only be in alignment with all the other marks every 6 rotations. After 6 revolutions, returning to TDC, all your timing marks should align. (If they don't, bite-the-bullet and start the process over, or figure out which cog is off, where).



I would be suspicious of the distributor timing, from your symptoms. Make absolutely sure #1 is top dead center, ready to fire, then see where your distributor is pointing. There's a 4 year difference between our trucks, so I'm not certain of specifics (but they ARE both 4G64's)...so the distributor rotor should be pointing down, just past the cap clip, this is the position #1 is ready to fire. If the valve cover is off, you can watch the rockerarms to determine where #1 is. If not, rotate the engine while looking through the oil filler cap: you can see #1 exhaust rockerarm clearly, and follow the cycle from there.

As has been widely publisized on this forum: if your distributor is to extreme side (left or right) the distributor is likely off by one tooth, or
(*GULP!*)
the timing belt is off by one tooth.

I'll also tell you that it is SO EASY to be one tooth off with these motors: it really takes some patience and fenesse to get it perfectly right.

FURTHER EDIT: Once you get it started and up to operating temperature, be sure to use the timing connector to set the timing. This jumper-wire procedure is absolutely crucial to proper timing. Again, specifics are in Roy's Garage, see the menu (that's why I put it there: for future guys like me who need to know, in simple terms). I DO wish to again thank Komeuppance for his patient guidance for when i was going through this very same scenario, Amos.

[amos_dugger]

Wouldn't it at least hit or try to start at one tooth off? Mine isn't even trying which makes me wonder... but I will take a look at this tomorrow... Thanks again, and I'll let you know!!!

[royster]

You'd think it would try, but it depends on what moved where during the timing belt procedure.

I'm jus' sayin' to check that out and see. Simple first, then complex. Simple is often the answer.

Another thing I read on the forum is that the fuel injectors can get glogged up when they sit for long periods of time. I still recommend verifying the timing first.

[camoit]

many times the Haynes picture is unclear. So we add in pictures to fill the gaps. Like this one.

8667

[amos_dugger]

Camoit... is this picture from a first gen? I have a 2nd Gen, and it shows the timing mark to be to the right side of the cam (looking IN the windshield standing at the grill. It appears to be just about dead on the bottom of the head or almost level, straight across... make sense?? So is that correct for a 2nd Gen?? Now that I know the manuals are wrong for the hole to lock up the balancer, I'm afraid what else may be incorrect....

[royster]

Hope this is of some help. Take your time to read through this, and note the photos. This should be fairly identical to your engine.
http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2974-90-2-4-oil-pump-replacement?p=26707&viewfull=1#post26707

Note the timing mark on the head and cam (highlighted in ink) from my 2.4 4G64 (click on image to enlarge)
8673

[camoit]

The picture is from a 2.0 second GEN. You will notice the Mark is below the top of the head. It's actually a casting Mark is what you're looking for.

[amos_dugger]

Thank You.... MY BABY STARTED TODAY!!! Along with the problems of the Haynes and Chiltons Manuals, the previous owner had marked the cam timing with red paint, the mark on the cam gear was good, but the head mark was wrong... I thought these pictures were of a 2.0 and just never second guessed it.... Once I had the right mark and double checked everything, got it corrected and now shes running... now just gotta set the timing!!! Thanks so much to all you guys, I couldn't have done it without ya, or this website!! Just so you know how important you guys are to me now, my dad passed away a lil over a year ago. This is stuff we did together and now im on my own... So I was stressing when it didn't turn out right. but with the help of you guys, I feel like dads proud of me right now. Again, THANKS SO MUCH!! I Love MightyRam50 and all the guys!! Ill be putting some pics on in the next few days.

[royster]

Always great to hear success stories, Amos.

We'll be waiting for the photos.

And don't forget, on the timing, to do the jumper-line thing (if that's required of a '94...it is on a '90).

To set the timing using the ignition timing connector:
http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2956-Roy-s-Garage-90-2-4-4G64-5-spd-D-50?p=26994&viewfull=1#post26994 and be sure the engine is at operating temperature.

'Lost my Dad many years ago, so i understand about the void they leave behind. We're all "orphans" at some point, and need each other :)

[camoit]

Your welcome.
Just be sure to try and answer other questions people may ask on other posts and threads. We need people to be more involved. The only way a board works is if people try and answer questions. If you don't know the answer then just take the best answer you can and post it. But let them know your not sure.

[amos_dugger]

Will do Camoit, I enjoy this site. I use to be a big Honda man, used Hondatech all the time. So i'll be around... lol. Thanks Royston, will do. Truck is really strong, im impressed with myself and the power of the truck... Next will be body work and lowering. Be a road racer before its over...