'90 MM 2.4L FI Build

[mitchi]

I say build, but it's more of a cry for help.

I know just enough about mechanics to be dangerous. I can take things apart, and put them back together reasonably enough. But, diagnostics and internals of engines are my downfall.

I've actually never torn an engine down to the pistons/rings area. I've changed many head gaskets (well, 3 to be exact). I've never torn into a head to mess with valves/guides/springs either. Basically, I guess I'm a glorified parts changer. I actually changed the head gasket on this and had it running not great but running. Started and idled perfectly, but would spit and sputter under load, and didn't have much power. Took it to the stealership, and they told me it failed the leak down test. So off with the head again. This time I pulled the engine, cause I was told it could be bad rings by the stealership.

Sooo. that's where I am at, at the moment. Engine out on a stand, head and every892889298930893189328933893489358936893789388 939894089418942thing else removed. And I don't have a clue where to go next. Well, I do, but, lack of funds has put a stop to things right now. The head seems to need work, and looking at the pistons and cylinder walls, I don't know if I really need to mess with them or not.

So if anyone can make sense of these pictures what do y'all think.

[royster]

Hi Mitchi - we have the same year and engine, so I hope to be of some help.

I doubt you need rings. Cross-hatching is obvious on the cylinder walls. Next post, please mention the mileage on the engine/truck.

I noticed with #2 or # 3 on the cylinder head the carbon deposit that was prominent on mine, too. Turns out is was the passageway for the EGR valve, and it was completely packed with carbon. It runs through the cylindr head, and also through the plenum (air intake manifold) and the intake manifold as well.

The gutlessness was likely in the various timing things, but since you have it torn down, give it all a good cleaning. Take the EGR off the plenum and clean out that carbon, too. Clean out the EGR valve, itself, and once clean, give it (the moving valve stem) a drop of oil. Give the device some mouth vacuum and see if it works properly.

It's best to wait for other members to chime in, but likely several small problems have added up to one disappointment. That seems to be the way of these trucks, particularly when they're new to us. Many times, the previous owner drove the last few thousand miles with no service or care.

I have a build thread, it might have some insights you can use, it's called "Roy's Garage" and it will help you with some photos and pointers. There's a lot of non-mechanical stuff, so you'll likely have to scroll through a lot of it to get where you want to go.

This forum is a great life-line for just the kind of thing you're doing. Keep us posted on your findings and actions, and asking questions doesn't mean you're dumb: that simply means you need to know. Many here can help. I hope to be one of them.

[mitchi]

Man royster, thanks.................mileage I'll check and post when I get home from work tonight

I was figuring on the cylinders looking ok. So pulling the oil pan was a little premature too i guess. Lesson learned.

I did do the test on the head, taking the cam out and having all the valves closed, and turned up. Filled the cavities with brake clean first and within a few hours all the cavities were empty, someone, I think my brother told me that was too thin of liquid, so I used 5w motor oil and that took several days and the #1 cavity was the one that leaked out.

So I'm guessing I may have some valve issues, but, the stealership told me it was #2 cylinder that failed the leak down test, and I did have to pull #2 plug and clean it on occasion, to get it to run a very minute little bit better.

Thanks for the advise, and I will pull that plenun out tonight and start cleaning it and the EGR valve.

8943 8944

[royster]

If #1 is leaking, you might do well to remove the valves and see if one is warped. They're dirt cheap to replace, though I don't recommend replacing all of them. Increasing the compression with a tighter head will put pressure on the old block components...so don't do a valve job, per se, just replace any valves that are warperd or bent.

Valve spring compressors are $20 at any auto parts store.

Once you have the valve springs off, see if you can spin the valves in their guides. Probably not, but they're supposed to spin freely during normal use. A little cleaning gets them so thay'll spin, and you can watch closely to see if th edge appears to go up and down as you spin.

Replacing the valve seals is a must, since you've gone this far, and from experience I'll tell you: do that on the bench while the head's out. Doing it with the head bolted to the engine is cumbersome.

Clean out that whole EGR passage, through the head and manifolds. I used Seafoam spray, and let it set overnight. I used some wire to plunge the passageways, sprayed them with brake cleaner to really douche them out.

Spend a couple bucks more and get the good head casket set: it will have additional gaskets and seal you will appreciate. Save the ones you don't use, like the water pump gasket and the silent shaft seal@ the oil pump.

Out of necessity, I kept the hydrolic lifters in place with mechanic's gloves fingers when re-installing the rockerarm assembly: it kept them from falling out and dropping down the oil passages. I highly recommend stuffing rags or otherwise blocking the oil passages while working on the head, to prevent bolts and stuff from accidentally dropping down. http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2954-Why-didn-t-I-Think-Of-That?p=26624&viewfull=1#post26624

And BradMPH recommends re-torquing the head bolts after 300-500 miles. I did this, and it allows you to also check on all the other components/bolts for good repair. Brad says the re-toques assures no blown head gaskets later on. I went with that suggestion.

[royster]

Likely you had to remove throttle sensors to get the valve cover off. I am in the process of learning how to callibrate these...not sure at all, but i did move the throttle position sensor and the check-engine light isn't coming on much at all, anymore. (Lucky guess in positioning). And also, it's important to know to use the connector on the fender to set the timing.

The details for this engine i flailed around with, and got answers one way or another. I'll never stop thanking Komeuppance for his help, and a few others who lent an experienced cyber-hand to me.

I pass that along to you, Mitchi. :)

8945

[mitchi]

If #1 is leaking, you might do well to remove the valves and see if one is warped. They're dirt cheap to replace, though I don't recommend replacing all of them. Increasing the compression with a tighter head will put pressure on the old block components...so don't do a valve job, per se, just replace any valves that are warperd or bent.

Valve spring compressors are $20 at any auto parts store.

Once you have the valve springs off, see if you can spin the valves in their guides. Probably not, but they're supposed to spin freely during normal use. A little cleaning gets them so thay'll spin, and you can watch closely to see if th edge appears to go up and down as you spin.

Replacing the valve seals is a must, since you've gone this far, and from experience I'll tell you: do that on the bench while the head's out. Doing it with the head bolted to the engine is cumbersome.

Clean out that whole EGR passage, through the head and manifolds. I used Seafoam spray, and let it set overnight. I used some wire to plunge the passageways, sprayed them with brake cleaner to really douche them out.

Spend a couple bucks more and get the good head casket set: it will have additional gaskets and seal you will appreciate. Save the ones you don't use, like the water pump gasket and the silent shaft seal@ the oil pump.


Kewl, thanks again....will do. I was thinking of taking the head to a shop.

The extra bucks gasket you speak of, got any recommendations? The one's I was going to buy will cost me 90 bux at a local parts store?

And the valve seals, any particular ones?

Thanks

[BradMph]

Man royster, thanks.................mileage I'll check and post when I get home from work tonight

I was figuring on the cylinders looking ok. So pulling the oil pan was a little premature too i guess. Lesson learned.

I did do the test on the head, taking the cam out and having all the valves closed, and turned up. Filled the cavities with brake clean first and within a few hours all the cavities were empty, someone, I think my brother told me that was too thin of liquid, so I used 5w motor oil and that took several days and the #1 cavity was the one that leaked out.

So I'm guessing I may have some valve issues, but, the stealership told me it was #2 cylinder that failed the leak down test, and I did have to pull #2 plug and clean it on occasion, to get it to run a very minute little bit better.

Thanks for the advise, and I will pull that plenun out tonight and start cleaning it and the EGR valve.

8943 8944


Nuttin wrong with using thin fluid to do a check. Water is used and I think some even used fuel. If it takes several days to leak through I wouldn't freak out on it. The oil is a little thick for testing IMO.
I would suggest a valve guide seal replacement if you want something to do and dig into it. You'll need a spring compressor and get a valve grinder tool and some lapping stuff and the correct seals, and have some fun. You can check then if a valve is bent by the wear on the stems and the entire job is actually very easy to do.

Leak down testing the pistons will pretty much test your oil ring seals though the ole compression test is the way to test compression rings and tells the story on the rating of each cylinder. This will help you to start your search on what place to look first.

Nasty EGR valves get carbonized so bad with soot and un burnt fuel residue. You probably need a coat hanger or like a rifle barrel cleaner rod tool with the wire brush tips to clean the tube through the head. Depending on last time cleaned I'm sure you will get a pretty significant amount of black garbage.

Check your cylinder walls for wobble scuffing. IN the photos It looks like I see some or it's the photo. Sometimes older engine will start to wobble the pistons a bit because of worn wrist pins. Though your head looks pretty decent and all look close to the same. Piston top edges look decent also, nothing too terribly different from others I have senn.

[mitchi]

Nuttin wrong with using thin fluid to do a check. Water is used and I think some even used fuel. If it takes several days to leak through I wouldn't freak out on it. The oil is a little thick for testing IMO.
I would suggest a valve guide seal replacement if you want something to do and dig into it. You'll need a spring compressor and get a valve grinder tool and some lapping stuff and the correct seals, and have some fun. You can check then if a valve is bent by the wear on the stems and the entire job is actually very easy to do.

Leak down testing the pistons will pretty much test your oil ring seals though the ole compression test is the way to test compression rings and tells the story on the rating of each cylinder. This will help you to start your search on what place to look first.

Thank for the comments Brad........I actually did a compression check b4 the stealership visit,, and got:

#1 = 150, 150, #2 = 150, 150, #3 = 150, 150, #4 = 160, 162.

7 revolutions each.

Tested twice.

[royster]

[The extra bucks gasket you speak of, got any recommendations? The one's I was going to buy will cost me 90 bux at a local parts store?

And the valve seals, any particular ones?

Thanks

That's about the right price range. It should actually come with a set of valve seals. The ones I got were two different seals: one kind for intake, and another for exhaust. I found that the ones for intake (rubber) still allowed leaking, so I got another set (plastic). An additional $20 but worth the piece of mind, and also I haven't had smoke on start-up since.

I don't think you need to send the head out for anything. I'm prone to tell you just reassemble a really clean engine and get what miles are left on it.

[royster]

Nasty EGR valves get carbonized so bad with soot and un burnt fuel residue. You probably need a coat hanger or like a rifle barrel cleaner rod tool with the wire brush tips to clean the tube through the head. Depending on last time cleaned I'm sure you will get a pretty significant amount of black garbage.

The EGR passage ends underneith the exhaust valve, so when you take the valve out you'll see what Brad's talking about, there too.

I used a length of 14-gauge house wire so there was some flex. Amazing how much gunkus-funkus is crammed in there.

8951

[mitchi]

^^^^^^^that is sooooo funny^^^^^^^^

juise guys is soooooo funny.........................

I like it here...................life is good..!!

[mitchi]

I took pictures of the head with the cam out, and of the hole i think y'alls are talking about for the EGR valve.

Man is that hole plugged. When I get to work tomorrow I'll post pics.

[mitchi]

Oh sh1t , wait........spose to go to the "Drive, Chip and Putt Championship" tomorrow at the Augusta National course.

So Monday.

[royster]

Oh sh1t , wait........spose to go to the "Drive, Chip and Putt Championship" tomorrow at the Augusta National course.

So Monday.

Hey! Maybe I'll see you there in Augusta! There's going to be a donutologist convention! "Filled, Glazed and Iced Donutocity Enhancement". Our chairman, Chris P. Kreem, will be giving a lecture about avoiding Dunkatosis by using the proper muscles in the wrist.

Oh, wait: that's Augusta, Virginia.

Boy, it'd be embarrassing to confuse the two events.

8952

Darn, wrong illustration: that's the donut universe, not the chocolate iced.

[mitchi]

:lmao:^^^^^^^^^^^^^:clappingorange::wavegreen:

[mitchi]

Never heard of Augusta, Va. I was stationed at Ft. Lee, Va, lived in Hopewell, Va. Went to Winchester a coupla times for the "Black Powder Turkey Shoot" back in the early 70's.

Originally from Delaware, went to Va Beach every year. Even remember, my dad drove us down to drive thru the bay bridge tunnel when we were kids, back when it was just a 2 laner. Md to late 60's.

[royster]

Augusta tell ya dis story, when i wuz January concerned about tings wit my wife, I October, "July to me when you went April bout my March Of Honor? December when tings wuz better?" June she wuz cryin' and confessed she DID February, but only so's I May October duh place, June know?

[Redneckmoparman]

I would take the head to a machine shop and have them check it out and magnaflux it to check for any cracks they will also clean it

[royster]

RNMM makes a good point, there. Perhaps look into resurfacing, though if there was no problem with head gasket leaks, it might be more than necessary. I've heard the resurfacing isn't expensive, but can also be done on the shop bench, using a sheet of sturdy glass and some sand paper.

When you get the valves off you can check to see if any of the valve guides have slipped down...I had two do that, and did have to send the head to a shop. Guy did a great repair.

And remember: no garage or shop should be without fresh, delicious donuts. Donuts: they're what's for dinner.

[mitchi]

RNMM makes a good point, there. Perhaps look into resurfacing, though if there was no problem with head gasket leaks, it might be more than necessary. I've heard the resurfacing isn't expensive, but can also be done on the shop bench, using a sheet of sturdy glass and some sand paper.
When you get the valves off you can check to see if any of the valve guides have slipped down...I had two do that, and did have to send the head to a shop. Guy did a great repair.

And remember: no garage or shop should be without fresh, delicious donuts. Donuts: they're what's for dinner.

I'm right there with you on the donuts, grew up living behind a Dunkin Donuts.....beings the rebel little kid used to go there in all hours of the night.

Here's the head, that hole in the 3rd one looks blocked for sure.

just thought I'd show my daily driver when it's raining::

9007901590149013901290119010900990089016

[royster]

The work looks terrific, nice clean up on the valve cover. Glad to see the rockerarm condoms are of use to you.

The Coors can next to the car keys is a bit omenous: watch out for that. The laws for DWI get stricter every year.

Your intake (not of beer, but manifold) is very different from my 4G64, as it appears to be four individual pieces. But the rest is quite familiar. It also seems your EGR goes into cylinder #2, whereas mine is in #3. But there is no question a good part of Jimmy Hoffa is wedged in there...not that Jimmy Hoffa HAD any good parts, I'm jus' sayin'. I have to suppose there were, after all, some differences in the Dodge and Mitsubishi models.

All loking good, Mitchi, and thanks for taking the time to post pictures.

And remember: powdered donuts help kill fleas. Yes, that's right: if that powdered sugar just stays on the dormant donut, it benefits no one. But, when you consume the donuts, powder falls and the tiny particulate gets into exoskeleton joints, just like diatomaceous earth or baby powder, slowly destroying pesky fleas and ants alike. AND it doesn't harm the environment.

Powdered donuts: better than drinking Black Flag.

[BradMph]

Oh look your rocker assembly is wearing little condoms. :lmao: (now it's safe from Mr.Donuts):rolling:

[mitchi]

ooops....yeah, those intakes are from my other SOHC ride. Couldn't get that picture out. Oh, yeah, drinking and driving is not a thing I do,

So, no worries there. Will be working on this head though out the week. You royster and others have reinvigorated me I'm wanting to get this thing back in, It just seemed to me this thing was a lost cause, but y'alls have restored my faith.

Thanks guys.

[royster]

Oh look your rocker assembly is wearing little condoms.

Didn't you notice the vault in the background? They're preparing for safe sex.

And just for the donut unsult, NO SOUP FOR YOU!

I thought that the conditions under which my engine still ran were bad, but RamBam's takes the cake (or donut). So I've seen that these engines are very hearty, and given proper attention, they can go on forever [cue Seline Dion...no, wait: please DON'T cue Seline Dion.]

[asmyser]

nice clean-up

[BradMph]

Ya, when they go back together and everything looks great, then it starts on the first try. Can't beat that feeling.

[royster]

I found with my rebuild that cleaning everything off got me familiar with the component, and what it does. Assembling a clean engine is also putting much better energy into it.

When I first bought the truck, I thought the engine would detail well. I was lucky (in some respects) that I had plenty of time to do extra detailing (winter snow and cold) and I took extra focused care re-assembling everything (some of which I had to dis-assemble three times, later) and, yeah: it started up pretty quick, though timing was an issue.

If you read my build thread, you'll see I confess, right off, about not wanting to break components down: they were unfamiliar to me (like the plenum). But I'm very glad I went the full distance, which includes correcting some lifter issues, and of course the 500 mile re-torque. I can't say I'm an expert with these engines, but I do know what I'm looking at, now...and it's clean, too!

9023

[mitchi]

nice clean-up

Thanks bro...............appreciate it.

[mitchi]

So, y'alls are telling me to strip the head down, valves/springs/guides take it to a shop to have it checked, clean, and magnafluxed/shaved?

[mitchi]

I found with my rebuild that cleaning everything off got me familiar with the component, and what it does. Assembling a clean engine is also putting much better energy into it.

When I first bought the truck, I thought the engine would detail well. I was lucky (in some respects) that I had plenty of time to do extra detailing (winter snow and cold) and I took extra focused care re-assembling everything (some of which I had to dis-assemble three times, later) and, yeah: it started up pretty quick, though timing was an issue.

If you read my build thread, you'll see I confess, right off, about not wanting to break components down: they were unfamiliar to me (like the plenum). But I'm very glad I went the full distance, which includes correcting some lifter issues, and of course the 500 mile re-torque. I can't say I'm an expert with these engines, but I do know what I'm looking at, now...and it's clean, too!

9023


puuuurrrdy.....!!!!!!!

[royster]

So, y'alls are telling me to strip the head down, valves/springs/guides take it to a shop to have it checked, clean, and magnafluxed/shaved?

I did take mine for repairs, and I think they cleaned it up some. Didn't know to request the resurfacing, but the Tech didn't recommend it, so it didn't get done. As the Tech knew his stuff, I think I'm alright. As for your situation: I think this is elective, but if you can afford it, it's an ounce of prevention. I do not recommend reconditioning the head, however, unless you are rebuilding the block.

[mitchi]

Well, into the process of cleaning out the EGR passage way through the intake manifold and plenum.

Purdy nasty crap coming out, even the EGR itself is full.

9037 9038

9039 9040

9041 9042

9043 9045

[royster]

:bart: Dude, yer truck was constipated!

[mitchi]

Yep......so I'm having a colonoscopy <-----(i thought there was a spell check) done as we type.......

And roto-rootered too.

And I 'm taking the valves out, should I keep track of which spring/valve/keeper goes to which place in the head?

I think I found another problem.........will post a coupla pics 2morrow at work.

This old Compac puter with 512 megs of memory won't handle much when it comes to pics.

[royster]

And I 'm taking the valves out, should I keep track of which spring/valve/keeper goes to which place in the head?

Keep each assembly in seperate zip-lock sandwich bags. Mark the bags first with a permanent marker (cyl#1 int, cyl.#1 exh, etc). It'll obviously require 8 bags. You can't go wrong.

[mitchi]

Zip lock/heavy duty bags I have...............will do.

[royster]

Zip lock/heavy duty bags I have...............will do.

Great! And recycle those bags when your project is finished: keep fresh, delicious donuts in them! Did you know that motor oil increases the donutocity and hole-istic circularessence of even plain-cake donuts? Yes, it's true! I said so, and as we all know: if you repeat a lie long enough, it becomes fact. Just ask the last 5 presidents of the United States! Statistics don't...uh...well...they don't...uhhhh...

anyways, share your donuts.

[mitchi]

:hippy::yellow::yellow::yellow::yellow::yellow::co okiemonster::cookiemonster::cookiemonster::cookiem onster::cookiemonster:^^^^^^^

[royster]

Oh, wow! Obedient donut holes! One of my better fantasies! (The one with Rosanne Barr just didn't work out).

[mitchi]

You're crazy.....but, I luv it............kewl man.

[noahwins]

You said the intakes were from another SOHC ride...another Mitsubishi truck?

[mitchi]

You said the intakes were from another SOHC ride...another Mitsubishi truck?

No....those are carbs from my 1975 Honda CB750K5. I'm in process of rebuilding them.

[mitchi]

Hey roys.....finally broke thru with the rotor-rooter::::::::::::::::


9055

[royster]

Yeah, I was stunned when I cleaned mine out...seemed to go on forever!
You might do well to play the Doors' "Break On Through": the bass vibrations dislodge any remaining Jim Morrison's old beer cans. He was known to hide them in Mitsubishi engines.

You know the EGR is clogged
Carbon packed and dried.
Scrape and spray / pushed and pryed -
Break on through to the other side!
Break on through to the other side!
Break on through to the other side~

[mitchi]

^^^lol^^^

Like me some Doors..listening to them right now.

[noahwins]

The Honda carbs don't fit on the 2.0 intake ports...do they?? Looks like a 2x2 setup our trucks.

[mitchi]

No, although there is a u-tube video showing a truck with motorcycle carbs on it. Those carbs are actually from my bike and I'm rebuilding them for the bike.

Just happens, the picture got caught up in my downloads and I couldn't remove it.

[mitchi]

.Well, got tools to take valves out. How the hell you git the seals off?

Hopefully post pics 2morrow at work.

First I've gone this far into an engine. Scarey.

[royster]

No need to be skeerd. The valve seals are removed...gently! but firmly with channel locks or pliers. The main thing is to not score or scratch the stems they sit on. Grip them and pull upward while twisting back and forth. Get one off, you'll know how to do the rest. The Haynes book shows someone using needle-nose pliers, lifting up from the bottom of the seal. I found the twist-and-shout pliers method productive.

As for installing the new seals: read my build thread and you'll see I had a difficult time getting any insights until the job was done. I soaked my seals in some Mystery Oil first (30wt will work). Be sure to use the plastic straw thing that comes with the seals: this helps keep them from getting damaged while being installed over the stem they live on. (You only get one or two straws, use it for each seal. Don't throw it away. Once the seal is in place comfortably, remove the straw thing and put it on the next stem to be worked on). Twist the seals down into place as far as you can by hand. Once mine were down as far as I could, I tapped gently on the metal surface of the seals with a socket (actually, I bought a stainless steel sleeve of that diameter) until they felt solidly seated.

Chin up, Mitchi, you have support here. Working on these trucks is a lot like sex: once you get the hang of it, you're suddenly finished.

The difference is: you don't have to put these trucks through college 18 years from now.

[mitchi]

Hey Thanks royster, I figured as much, that is the way they come off.....buuuttt....the darn thinks won't budge.

I did, however, get one off, I hope I didn't nick it up, cause I pryed it up with a screwdriver.

Heres pictures to show::::


91389173917491589140914391479148914991519152915391 559176

[royster]

Wow, that's quite a photo collection!

It's interesting how the exhaust valves are not consistantly dirty, but some more than others (EGR). On mine, I also noted that #4 (closest to the firewall) had a lot of gunk, because that is where the oil drains most...and that seal was not even working (the valve guide had dropped 1/2"!). You might want to check the valve guides for any slippage: I understand that was one of the problems they had with these engines. It's a very simple fix, if you can find the right guy who knows his stuff.
[EDIT] Seeing's as your seals are still on there, likely the guides are okay. The valve seals actually seat on the valve guide. It's amazing how much I forgot in the few weeks since my repair.

I used a Dremmel tool with a wire wheel to clean the carbon off the valves. Very few of them would spin freely in the closed position...particularly those whose valve guides had slipped down. I coated the valves with installation oil before putting them back in.

Those seals are a struggle to get off, however so you can, just being careful not to scratch the stem surface: scratches will allow oil to leak down.

:oldtimer: My memory is returning to some degree: you put the valve in first, then the straw thing goes on the stem of the valve, then the seal, then replace the springs.

You do the Hokey Pokey and you turn the head around...wait, that's not right...

I was also very anal-retentive about the head bolts: cleaned them off real good, and cleaned oil/Jimmy Hoffa out of the bolt holes. I didn't want any gunkus~funkus affecting the torque reading.

[mitchi]

Yea, I'm still working on that picture deal, seems once their there, I can't pull them back out. But, what the hey, the more pics the merrier.......sometimes.

All of the valves turned freely in their slots. I've been to 4 different stores trying to find lapping compound with no luck. But, no worries, as I intend to take the head and have it magnafluxed, and checked for flatness. Hopefully they'll clean it too.

I still have to source the seals yet too. I have a bench/drill in vise with a wire brush on it. However, I think I read or watched a utube video about using a brass brush. So off to HF again tonight. Maybe they'll have the compound.

Thanks again royster.

[royster]

If you ordered a good head gasket set, seals (and the cocaine straw) will come with it. My second set of seals I ordered through NAPA...but they didn't have the straw. Depending on the head gasket set, you might end up with two different types of seals, one for exhaust, one for intake. I don't recommend the intake (rubber) seals: get another set and do them all the same (plastic/metal). The set might also confuse you with itty-bitty valve seals: the same head gasket set is for the 2.0, and thus has jet valve seals and a tiny cocaine straw, along with some o-rings.

If you go to the NAPA online or RockAuto site, there will be pictures of what you get in the set you order.

Very likely the shop will clean the head. Follow through with the recommendation of Jefferson Airplane in the song, "White Rabbit" : "Feed The Head".

[mitchi]

Well, got the seals removed.....not Purdy. They were a booger to get off, hope I didn't nick any of the seats.

Next is to take the head to a machine shop, and get it checked.

Do or are these bolts reusable?

9230

[royster]

are these bolts reusable?

Absolutely, and you're supposed to keep them in the order they were removed...so as to put them back in the same hole they came from. It's a marriage issue, I guess.

Not only should you re-use them, but good luck finding replacements for them!

The used valve seals, as illustrated, makegood miniture wind chimes you can hang from your rear view mirror.

[mitchi]

Yeah, I figured as much, thats why they are positioned the way they are.

In an arrow pattern, pointing to the front of the engine.

I know I probly should have stuck them in cardboard, but, thankfully, or not, no one will screw with them as they are. No young kids, dogs, runningt around here, so purdy much everything stays as is, till I get out there and screw things up.

So far, haven't upset these. Just dropped a container of gas with carb parts soaking. Had to air out the garage all night long.....sucked.

[mitchi]

Got all the valves and seals out.

What is a good soaking agent to use on these things?

Can I scrap on these thing w/o damaging the valves? Looks like lots of buildup on them. Right now, they are soaking in some seafaom, with very little noticeable cleaning.

And will a wire brush be ok to use?

Thanks for your responses.

[royster]

Wire brush will be fine, just stay off the stems. I used a Dremmel tool with a small wire wheel on mine. With a Seafoam pre-soak, they should clean up just fine.

[mitchi]

Thanks royster, I kinda figured these were like MC fork tubes, staying away from the part that slides in the guides/tube seals.

So as to not nick the part that needs to seal the fluids. That I understand.

So soak and brush, scrap a little, then soak some more.


93959396


Soaking next to the bench/vise mounted drill/buffer/wire brush.

9398

[Rahtid]

Did you order the head gasket set,

[mitchi]

Did you order the head gasket set,

No I have not, recommendations?

Machine shop called and said , "my head is cracked"............I need another.......crap.

[BradMph]

Sorry to hear about your bad news.
Have you checked to see if head can be welded. It really isn't that difficult for a good shop to do. In most cases it also increases the strength of the head in areas that seem to find the stress. I have been using a welded head for years and it shows no sign of reoccurring.

[mitchi]

So, I asked them if it could be repaired and they said no....so apparently they are not as good as a machine shop as peeps locally talked them up to be.......or they are right and the crack is that bad.

They told me flat out....I need a new head.

So, looks like I'm in the market for another head. Hate to go to the local pull-its, and get another that is cracked.......cause it's costing me damn near 100 bux to have these darn things checked for cracks.

And they expensive as heck from places like Autozone, O'riely's and such.

[geezer101]

So, looks like I'm in the market for another head. Hate to go to the local pull-its, and get another that is cracked.......cause it's costing me damn near 100 bux to have these darn things checked for cracks.

...I feel your pain. I'm chasing a non hydraulic flat tappet head - there's an over abundance of hydraulic heads and it's russian roulette every time you march into one of these places with your tool box under your arm. :shakehead:

[BradMph]

I would sure like to see the crack if you get a chance to take images anytime. Makes me wonder when machine shops give you news you never expected, especially if they had my part for more then a day or so. These Mitsubishi heads are tender in many cases and the clearances between valves and stuff can be minimal. A little off on timing and temperature climbs some time causing a little more stress then usual, pull it into garage where it cools too quickly and the hairline begins. Your not the Lone Ranger when it comes to cracked heads on these things.
My first one cracked after I moved to a freezing climate and left the water in radiator all winter because of a broken trany. Cracked head, intake manifold bottom almost fell out, radiator split, 3 freeze plugs popped. Second head cracked the entire length of cam shaft. 3rd head crack on an over heat that I caught early and pulled right over. Found a quarter size hole under cam shaft area. 4th head..flat tappet has been good so far. Oversized radiator with electric fan and a 180 degree thermostat so cool water starts a little earlier into engine. Keep us informed, Heads are available still.

[mitchi]

I would sure like to see the crack if you get a chance to take images anytime. Makes me wonder when machine shops give you news you never expected, especially if they had my part for more then a day or so. These Mitsubishi heads are tender in many cases and the clearances between valves and stuff can be minimal. A little off on timing and temperature climbs some time causing a little more stress then usual, pull it into garage where it cools too quickly and the hairline begins. Your not the Lone Ranger when it comes to cracked heads on these things.
My first one cracked after I moved to a freezing climate and left the water in radiator all winter because of a broken trany. Cracked head, intake manifold bottom almost fell out, radiator split, 3 freeze plugs popped. Second head cracked the entire length of cam shaft. 3rd head crack on an over heat that I caught early and pulled right over. Found a quarter size hole under cam shaft area. 4th head..flat tappet has been good so far. Oversized radiator with electric fan and a 180 degree thermostat so cool water starts a little earlier into engine. Keep us informed, Heads are available still.

WOW....I sure wiil......

[mitchi]

I would sure like to see the crack if you get a chance to take images anytime. Makes me wonder when machine shops give you news you never expected, especially if they had my part for more then a day or so. These Mitsubishi heads are tender in many cases and the clearances between valves and stuff can be minimal. A little off on timing and temperature climbs some time causing a little more stress then usual, pull it into garage where it cools too quickly and the hairline begins. Your not the Lone Ranger when it comes to cracked heads on these things.
My first one cracked after I moved to a freezing climate and left the water in radiator all winter because of a broken trany. Cracked head, intake manifold bottom almost fell out, radiator split, 3 freeze plugs popped. Second head cracked the entire length of cam shaft. 3rd head crack on an over heat that I caught early and pulled right over. Found a quarter size hole under cam shaft area. 4th head..flat tappet has been good so far. Oversized radiator with electric fan and a 180 degree thermostat so cool water starts a little earlier into engine. Keep us informed, Heads are available still.:

Hey Brad, here are the pics:::::

[mitchi]

Well, some good news.....................I took the machine shop the head off this locked-up engine, and its not cracked, but has bent valves and needs a valve job.

So, guess I'm looking at valve guides new valves and naturally seals.

Does that sound about right?

[BradMph]

Hey that is fixable! absolutely 100% fixable. And if you get it fixed at the right place it shouldn't ever crack there again. I have seen many heads exactly like yours, this is the nature of the older cast heads for some reason. But do not throw that away. A good shop will grind a little in and fill it like a filling on a tooth. It will bond those egdes back into one if the welder knows his technique. After welding you probably do not want to grind it to smooth it out. Leave it as the welder has. Unless he piled a 1/2in of molten metal on it. If you grind on it, you will probably crack it again.
When I got my head from a place that repairs them, I was chatting with them and just mentioned that I was going to clean it up and do a little work to smooth the weld out. He friggin responded instantly, saying no no no, leave it alone or it will not keep it's strength. So far he has been correct and I have had the temps in a hot range a few times after installation.

Thanks for those images. It's always the same place I see these cracks, or the MCA jet housing.

You can almost do your own valve grind also. Unless the valves are tweaked bad. Just replace the guides and seals, install new valve and get the wooden dowel tool with two rubber ends and some compound and go to it. Might as well replace the valve springs also since your there. I think $45 was what I paid for high performance Schneider springs.
Or let the machine shop do it all and if it F*ks up, drive it into his shop's front window. lol

He only has to replace the valves that are bent. If they are really bent and not just wobbling. Save them also so we can see if there are severe wobble marks on the stems. Bent valves usually happen on a timing belt snap and they hit the pistons. If that hasn't happen, most the time they are just carbon wobble marks on the stem. You always want to replace the seals also. Its a super easy job to do. guides are a little tougher but backyard mechanic can do it. Tools are simple and I have listed them in my thread when I reseated my valves and replace seals and springs for the first time.

Valves that are bent usually wobble around in the guides. The stems will kind of look like this image sort of.
10645

[mitchi]

Hey brad, I told the shop, I would do the valve job, cause I figure they trying maybe-maybe not, to make some money off of me.

I figured there's peeps like you that will help me with this. And I applaud you for doing it. What I learn here, I will certainly pay it forward, that's for sure.

I will certainly post some pics of the other head, once I get it back. They asked me if I wanted them to go ahead and shave it, I may have been over excited, knowing I had an uncracked head, and told them to do it. Maybe it needed it, maybe not......I have no ideal.

I think I'm going to be into having these heads checked......200 bux.

Then when I get it back from being checked for cracks and shaved, I have to pull the valves and that will be another 150 to 200 bux to get this head put back on the motor.

We'll see. Once again, Thanks Brad.

[mitchi]

Dayyyyum.....how long should it take to shave a head..................?????????????

Question: Whats the difference between the 12pt 12mm bolts and the (forget the size) allen head bolts?

Which ones are better than the other?

And can I use bolts from another engine into mine?

[geezer101]

$200 to get a head inspected? Really? They give it a hot tank, check to see if the head is still 'true' and do a pressure test. This is barely an hours work... I spent an extra $90 on top of that and got all my valves and seats cut and a reface. I think these guys are messing with you. If there are other car affiliated groups in your area, put the word out to them that you're after a good machine shop. Someone who's been building cars for a while will know a small shop somewhere that does top notch work without charging big cash.

[mitchi]

^^^^yea, I got feelers out.......not coming up with much. ^^^^^^

All I can do is wait and see.

[mitchi]

OK.......been procrastinating long enough. Got my settlement from my motorcycle accident, now have a little cash to do something about getting this truck off these ramps and out the garage. Wife is pissed this things been in here for well over a year now.

Need a little advise on what to do.

1. Buy a new/re-manufactured head from a parts store, and just install and go. ($490 + core charge)

2. Have this other head that's been checked for cracks and shaved rebuilt by a machine shop ($180 + parts and labor) which may come out to same amount of money.

Plus after removing the cam from the above head, noticed scarring/grooves on one of the cam journals and on the cam itself. So, I'm assuming I wasted 120 bux to have this head checked. And that the first option is gonna be my best direction.

After all that is said and done, whats the consensus?

Next question is, if I do buy option number one, will I have to do anything with the engine. Does anyone think having a new head will endanger the engine in any way.

I think I posted some pictures of the engine cylinders already. There are visible crosshashed marks on the walls, and no visible nicks or gouges.

Appreciate all the responses.

Anyone.....anyone................??????????

[crvtec90]

490 sounds high for a rebuilt head but if youre cam and journals have scoring then its gonna get worse before it gets better. Does the rebuilt head come complete with valves and cam? Alabama cylinder head sells a non jet valve casting that's supposed to be decent but I think it comes as a bare head.

[mitchi]

490 sounds high for a rebuilt head but if youre cam and journals have scoring then its gonna get worse before it gets better. Does the rebuilt head come complete with valves and cam? Alabama cylinder head sells a non jet valve casting that's supposed to be decent but I think it comes as a bare head.

Yep.........complete.......just have to use my pulley.

[crvtec90]

Well I guess that sounds more reasonable since its complete with valves/cams/ lifters etc. I think the bare heads are 250-300.

U might think about tearing into the engine to check all the bearings before you install a new head. If the main/rod/balance shaft bearings are bad they could put pieces of metal into the oil and then travel up to the head.

[mitchi]

Man......I sure have been procrastinating on this thing......yeah, I'm thinking the same, as far as the bearings and such.

I'm thinking I may need a new crank, cause it appears the keyway hole has been wallowed some.

And b4 tear down, when running, I noticed the fan belt wobbling.

Problem......where to get another crank?

Anyone.......anyone....???????

[mitchi]

Oh well, here it is July 4th weekend and not a darn thing done on this thing.

How can I check the rods and crank to see if it needs to be torn apart?

The cylinder bores look good, can see crosshatch marks.

Engine spins freely enough.....seems.

[mitchi]

Here it is a week b4 Thanksgiving, my goal is to have this thing fired this coming weekend.

Got a few things left:

Radiator install

Air cleaner assembly installed.

Spark plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor.

Fluids.....oil, antifreeze

Charge battery, and may need to replace.

[mitchi]

Well did need to replace the battery.

After couple hundred bux, it has fired up. After 3 or 4 years up on those ramps.

Runs just ok. Have oil coming out of the valve cover, just above no. 2 plug.

Guess either the cover or head has a dip in the surface. Need to get that fixed.

It over heats very quickly. Has new thermostat, but must not be opening. I'll go get another one and see what happens.

[mitchi]

Cleans up real good after sitting on ramps for 3 or 4 years.

Got some room in the garage.

My wife is estatic..................

[mitchi]

1527515274Well, got this wired in.....fits real nicely............

And the two together.....

[royster]

Well did need to replace the battery.

It over heats very quickly. Has new thermostat, but must not be opening. I'll go get another one and see what happens.

Great job, mitchi! This might be of some help for your overheating:

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2956-Roy-s-Garage-90-2-4-4G64-5-spd-D-50?p=26975&viewfull=1#post26975

"your thermostat orientation is correct with the bleed valve at the top, the sensor in the housing will not obstruct it from opening all the way."

[mitchi]

Yea, it was installed correctly.

It's working good now.....thanks for the info royster.

[mitchi]

I installed a 7 bolt head on my 6 bolt engine...........no issues cept, I think I may had damaged some of the valve seals.

I tried to push them down by hand, but ended up using a deep socket to tap them down.

Smokes some still, only had it idling, haven't yet taken it for an extended test drive.

[royster]

Good to hear, Mitchi.

My experience with the valve seals is thay actually take a few miles to really seat, so give 'em some time and see what happens. After abou 5 cold starts, you should see results.

[BradMph]

I hope you purchased good brand seals. You know how those Chinese parts can be. Those should be packed full with pre-run grease before installing. If not mistaken, there should be some springs on them to keep them seated.

[Lon Moer]

.

Just an FYI, but the chrome grill and front corner light surrounds are from a '93 or later truck. Those parts should be black like the rear corner light surrounds are.
I don't know if the previous owner just wanted to add some bling or if those parts needed to be replaced for some reason? The front bumper is correct, but it looks really nice, they usually have some bumps and dents, so it might also be a replacement?

ed; its is a really nice truck!

[finalfighter]

i had the same thing happen. bought a set of cheap ones. go with a set of fel-pro ones. they will slide down pretty easily and push down by hand. no more burnt oil.

[mitchi]

Ok..............................finally got some new tires on it.

Took it for it's maiden voyage yesterday, smoked the whole neighborhood as I left it.

After about 3 or 4 miles, it stopped smoking. Runs really good after sitting on those ramps for so long, and having the same gas in it.

Stopped and filled it with clean gas, probably will take a little time to get that cleared out.

It's automatic so the trans needs some TLC now. Won't go into over drive.

Drove it to work today, drove fine 'cept got a little hesitation, which I'm thinking the trans.

Still doesn't feel like it has the power it should, takes off just so-so. Nothing spectacular.

But runs and drives.