MUST READ - ZDDP and why our trucks need this in the OIL

[pennyman1]

The EPA has started a new campaign to eliminate our old vehicles - they have removed all the Zinc and most of the Phosphorus from todays motor oil to protect the catalytic convertors in the newest vehicles. But, zinc and phosphorus in older pre 1996 motors lublicates flat tappet cams to prevent wear, and protects the older bearings in these same motors from excessive wear. Now that SM grade motor oil does not have these elements, they must be added in at every oil change to prevent damage to cams and bearings. The additive is ZDDP and it is available from many sources - all cars from the mid 90's and older need this additive. Comp Cams and Edelbrock are now marketing oils and additives to address this for muscle cars and other older vehicles. If you want to keep driving your trucks or other older vehicles, using this additive is imperative to longevity of the motor. I am just so glad the EPA is looking out for the auto makers to help them save money on replacng damaged convertors due to Zn and Ph contamination - just like the ethanol is leaning out carb equipped motors so they burn up. This does apply to all our trucks motors as they all were designed for the Zn and Ph to be in the oil.

[LethalEthan]

Some of the racing oils you can get have this additive. Valvoline VR1 comes in synthetic and conventional and has zinc additives already in it. But oils like that are quite expensive. I dont know how it is for you guys, but theres a couple of gas stations here where you can get non-ethanol marine fuel, but again, its expensive as all get out

[pennyman1]

That it also why I run Sta-bil marine ethanol gas treatment - it negates the bad effects of ethanol and boosts the power and economy. 1 Oz treats 10 gallons of fuel - 12 oz bottle is $10 at advanced and treats 120 gallons. Or get the 32 oz bottle for 20; you won't regret it.

[Acuta73]

Does this apply to synthetics? I tend to only use Castrol Syntec (name changed, don't remember it). I know the synthetics tend to have moly in them, but not sure if that applies.

[pennyman1]

This applies to all regular motor oils including synthetic. If it doesn't say it has ZDDP added - its the no ZN low Ph oil. I just got the additive from Eastwood today - 4 oz bottle for 7.00 treats 4-6 quarts of oil. Need it every oil change for protection from wear. Oil with the additive in it goes for 10+ per quart. What a racket this is!!!

[LethalEthan]

Oil with the additive in it goes for 10+ per quart. What a racket this is!!!

I hear that!

[Rahtid]

This mainly for pushrod engines,They started lowering the zddp content in the 90's. Thats when there was a rash of lifter failures in and wiped out camshafts on small block chevy,ford,and mopar with flat hydraulic or soild lifter with heavy duty valve springs

[pennyman1]

I scored 19 quarts of pen grade semi syn 10w30 oil with zddp for $30 for all - guy was cleaning up his garage and was selling off all kinds of good stuff.

[Rahtid]

Just buy some shell rotella it has the zddp in it

[pennyman1]

it does but even it has been reduced for the same reason as the gas motors, now that the new diesels run convertors too.

[Acuta73]

STP oil treatment = ZDDP added

Bout $4 an oil change...

Found that out today fiddling around at Napa.

[pennyman1]

Huh, did not know that. Hope its not as thick as the original STP from the 60's; that stuff gummed up many a motor because it was so thick.

[mopar_ja]

Just read an article on this, they said to (stay away from anyhting that has an API approval) the safe oils are diesel oils, race oils, oils not approved by API. here is the link to said article.

http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

[derek6790]

Hey Pennyman. I heard that i should not be using Zmax because it can do more harm then good in vehicles to the bearings and cam. Do you have an opinion on Zmax???? I read your post and agree with your ZDDP idea. I bought some STP oil treatment with ZDDP in it and want to add it to my regular oil changes. I currently use Castrol gtx 10w-30 in my 86' ram 50 2.6. I have 160k mileage on my bottom end but the top end everthing else is new. Can you recommend what's the best Oil and ZDDP combination to use in my pickup. PLEASE HELP.

[pennyman1]

NAPA carries Brad-penn 10w-30 thats semi synthetic with zddp thats good; amsoil also has several different oils that all have zddp and some even offer extended oil change intervals to 15k miles with an extended life filter. Redline also has the zddp added to their oils - basically almost any non-mass marketed oil will work cause they don't get API certs which requires the zddp to be left out of the oil. As far as the Zmax additive or any other type, its better than none at all, but because it wasn't blended in when the oil was refined, it may have a tendancy to fall out of the oil and get filtered out; not totally sure i believe that, but it does make sense. Then again, engine restore wouldn't work if that was the case.

[derek6790]

Ok, Pennsoil semi-syn huh? i'll keep in mind non API oils. im sure if you told me to use sythetic oil you use it. How is it? 2.6 club. Im not sure how safe synthetic oil at this time in my vehicles life is? Is that a reality for me? im just unsure about Zmax, i hear its only mineral oil with Linkyte, i guess an anti-rust agent? In outside company lab tests had 50% higher bearing wear then regular oil and the Ftc went after them for false tests? its beyond me but i've used 3 bottles of this in the 2yrs iv'e had my truck. I may stop and try engine restore. Is that a carbon diperser as well how does it work? I want a top shelf oil with the most ZDDP allowed. Can Redline be found in stores?

[pennyman1]

not pennsoil, penn grade and NAPA carries it. If Zmax has bad reviews stop using it. Engine restore is good if your compression is low or you have very high mileage, but its not a cure for worn out engines. The csl formula (copper,silver,and lead) fill in the scratches to make bearings and cylinder bores better for tighter clearances. Geronimo has had the front and rear mains replaced 20 years ago and the rest of the seals are original, and the only leak I get is the valve cover gasket with any oil, not just synthetic. To cleanup carbon and sludge in the crankcase, run a quart of rislone in place of 1 quart of oil at the next oil change - its a super detergent that gently cleans the oil passages and may even inprove power and economy. Use REdline synthetic fuel system cleaner for the fuel system to decarbon the valves and head. I am not sure where you can get redline in a store, but its available online in tons of places; smaller parts store sometimes carry it. Do an online search for dealers in your area.

[camoit]

Synthetic has the advantage of longer miles between oil changes. As for the API that is an industry standard of testing. Just like ASTM testing for concrete. If you want to run a good diesel oil use Dello 400 SAE 15W-40. It will clean the crap out of your engine and can take the higher pressures of the diesel trucking world. DO NOT USE the Dello 400 SAE 15w-40,E. The "E" is a California contraption that is "more" Environmentally friendly. Ya right. It means more oil changes. 8000 mile between changes not the standard 10,000. When you dump in 10 gallon at a time it adds up quick. Screw California and the government..... Hell California went and removed the led tire weights from your car. No led = less reloaded ammo. They say it's for the children and the planet, but it's to stop us reload guys.

[derek6790]

Thanks you guys, i just cant seem to realize it must be ok to run synthetics in my 86' gaser. Even diesel oils could be substituted. wow. I'll try penngrade first. and use rislone, csl, and engine restore soon as possible. Can i use these products all at once. Thanks.

[pennyman1]

yes with no problem - btw csl is in engine restore.

[Acuta73]

Was hinted at here, but the reason ZDDP was removed from oil is that it kills catalytic converters. Not a biggie if you don't have to run one, but those of us that live in smog control areas need to be aware of it.

Keep in mind, a Cat is a lot cheaper than an engine, but you need to be aware that it IS killing your Cat. Means you will have to replace them a lot more often, like probably every time you are required to go through emissions check.

Just an FYI and certainly doesn't detract from the need of it.

[pennyman1]

The way it kills cats is over time, not quickly. The auto manufactorers are now on the hook for the cats in new cars for 100k miles, instead of 70k - oil with ZDDP can kill the cat between 70 and 100K so the auto companies had the ZDDP pulled to save them money, and if it kills your engine due to more wear on the cams, they sell more cars.

[cosax]

I know I'm late to this party but WOW....this forum is full of good info for our old trucks. Slowly getting through all the posts here. Off to the store to get oil and gas treatment stuff. Thanks a lot

[revvedUpToTheMax]

Synthetic has the advantage of longer miles between oil changes. As for the API that is an industry standard of testing. Just like ASTM testing for concrete. If you want to run a good diesel oil use Dello 400 SAE 15W-40. It will clean the crap out of your engine and can take the higher pressures of the diesel trucking world. DO NOT USE the Dello 400 SAE 15w-40,E. The "E" is a California contraption that is "more" Environmentally friendly. Ya right. It means more oil changes. 8000 mile between changes not the standard 10,000. When you dump in 10 gallon at a time it adds up quick. Screw California and the government..... Hell California went and removed the led tire weights from your car. No led = less reloaded ammo. They say it's for the children and the planet, but it's to stop us reload guys.

What about the delo 400 15w-40 LE I have heard from some people that work in diesel engine shops such as colleges and stuff that this oil is not nearly as good as the delo hd30 I work knechts autoparts and we carry tons of redline oils. Plus zinc additives. Knechts is a locally owned company btw... oregon only.

[noahwins]

What about "Energy Conserving" oils? I've heard to avoid them like the plague if you don't have a modern FI engine.

Guys with the primitive motorcycle engines I like say to use oil for turbodiesel engines, like Shell Rotella but I never understood the rationale. I guess this is it.

[pennyman1]

Yes and now quaker state oil is selling Defy - an oil that has some zddp to reduce wear on older motors. Not sure about it, just found it a wally mart the other day

[noahwins]

Pennyman, would this ZDDP and ethanol issue affect my '94 BMW 318? I used Shell 91 octane gas, it says on the pump there's up to 10% ethanol.

[pennyman1]

the ethanol definately, the zddp less so but it won't hurt using an oil with it - it wasbuilt when zddp was standard in the oil. The zddp issue only started in the last 3-5 years, so the effect on older motors won't been seen for a while, depending on how much and how hard the vehicle is used. The defy oil sounds like a good compromise if the oil is good - haven't used Quaker state in years.

[noahwins]

I've always had good luck with Mobil. I found this chart of their oils with ZDDP contents listed.

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

[pennyman1]

any mass market gas engine oils are bad for older vehicles without the zddp additive. Diesel oils for the most part seem to still have the ZDDP, but running a heavier weight oil than 10w-30 in an older vehicle could cause issues if the motor is sludged up from poor oils or infrequent oil changes. I knew one guy that ran his d-50 on non-detergent diesel oil because the guy he bought it from ran it that way from new with no problems.

[noahwins]

Just changed the oil on the Bimmer 4 banger with Mobil 1 5W-30 and STP oil treatment. The STP stuff is thick as honey. Poured out real slow. Also tried 8 oz. of Amsoil gasoline treatment in a fresh tank of gas because Allied didn't carry Stabil and the Amsoil stuff seemed like a similar product based on this chart:

http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html

We'll see how it goes.

[MrPaco]

Hi all, I'm waking up this thread form a long nap...

I'm about to do my first oil change on the truck, and came up upon this thread and the zddp issue. There's good information here, and from reading the opinions here and some quick research online seems like there's is no argument on whether or not we need zddp in our trucks. The only question seems to be to whether use an oil with the zddp already in it, or use an additive.
Since the information in this thread is several years old, I wanted to ask the experts here (specially pennyman) if there is any new available information that you might be aware of that could help me make the decision on which route to go down.

Seems like the formulations on the oil products change frequently, and not all manufacturers are totally upfront with the information, that's why I would like to hear from the experts with real life experience.
These are the things I'm wondering about the oils and the additives:

Oils-
1. What are some of the oils with zddp added currently available that you would recommend?
2. Any idea what's the correct concentration of zddp in the oil needed for the best protection? And do any of the available oils have that amount? Valvoline VR1 (https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil) has 1,300 ppm of zddp, is that enough?
3. Is it safe to use a diesel oil with zddp in it on a gas engine (2.6)?

Additives-
1. There were two that were mentioned in the thread, Eastwood (https://www.amazon.com/Eastwood-Additive-Premature-NonRoller-Deterioration/dp/B003FWUWBM/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8) and STP (https://www.amazon.com/STP-Oil-Treatment-fluid-ounces/dp/B0009PCPP4). Wondering if anyone has experience with both of them, and which one do you think is the better option.
2. This thread and opinions are form 2011, any newer product in the market that you would recommend?
3. How exact does the amount of additive to oil need to be? For instance the Eastwood additive is 4 oz and treats 4-6 qts, my 2.6 engine takes 5 qts of oil, can I add the whole bottle of additive, or do I need to leave some out?
4. The STP additive is 15 oz, which is basically half a quart. Since that's not an insignificant amount of fluid, do I need to adjust the amount of oil I'm using (use 4.5 qts instead of 5)?

As always, I'm amazed at the amount of great information that can be found here, and the willingness of the members to share it.
Thank you.

[Giovanni89]

I'll throw my hat in the ring. I use comp cams break in additive with every oil change. 1 bottle per oil change should give you the 1000+ppm of zddp that is generally recommended for older engines. I used to run Shell rotella 10-30. Diesel engine oils have more zinc than standard auto oils. I switched to mobil1 high mileage 10-30 for longer oil change intervals. The amount of time it took the oil pressure needle to come off the peg on very cold days (-10F) was alarming, so I ended up switching again to mobil1 0-30 (i've found it at walmart and amazon, but not the parts stores). I find the 0-30 builds pressure quickly on the critical start up period and actually has more pressure at idle than the 10 weight. I believe this is because the pump is able to lift it out of the pan easier.
In my opinion, comp cams break in additive is the way to go. Add it to any oil and you shouldn't have to worry. Even diesel engine oils are lowering their zddp amounts as catalytic converters find their way to large diesel engines. Also, Pretty sure these are 4.5 quart engines. I add 1/2 quart of the additive and 4 quarts of oil. If you don't use one already, grab a filter for one of the diesel engines. Same specs as the standard 2.6 filter, but with 1.5 times the filter media. I have a thread on it.

[pennyman1]

most of the Rotella diesel oil no longer has any ZDDP - it was removed for the same reason as the gas motors - 100k converter warranties, and ZDDP killing the converters at 75 - 80 k. The comp cams break in additive is a good choice to add to regular oil, or you can get amsoil or redline with ZDDP. Even royal purple has a line of oils with ZDDP.

[MrPaco]

Giovanni- Thanks for the tip on the comp cams additive. Is the 1,000+ ppm the sweet spot we should be aiming for? I haven't found any specific info on that, but it looks like it might be the right concentration since the zddp added oils also seem to be around that number.
Found your thread about the larger oil filter (for diesel), very cool thanks, will look into that. Here it is in case anyone else is wondering http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/6984-G54B-oversized-oil-filter

Pennyman- Thanks for the feedback, I checked out he oils you mentioned, and like the Valvoline VR1, they seem to be around 1,200-1,400 ppm, so I'm going to assume that this is the right concentration window.

Other than price (using an additive being cheaper than using a high zinc oil), are there any other advantages to go with an additive like comp cams, eastwood or STP, over the high zinc oil?

[Giovanni89]

I'm going off memory on the 1000ppm. I remember reading comp cams literature that one bottle treats 5-7 quarts for a new cam break in. The need for zddp is diminished slightly with new oils, because they have a higher shear strength. ZDDP creates a sacrificial layer between the cam lobe and lifter. When all of the oil was squeezed out from between the lifter and cam lobe, the zddp would act like a dry lubricant. The more valve spring pressure you have, the more zddp you will need. You really need to get the engine up to temp for the zddp to actually adhere to the sliding surfaces, so make sure you don't only do short trips. The reason I use the comp cams, it's easy, and I can run any oil I want. Most of the racing oils at the parts store are 15-40 or 20-50. With the balance shafts removed in my engine, I'm making 90psi of oil pressure running down the highway with a 30 weight oil. I don't burn any with a 5k change interval. I don't have any valve train noise. A heavier weight oil is only beneficial under heavy loads (racing) and in worn engines where the clearances have opened up.
When I put my non jet valve head on I put in Schneider heavy duty valve springs. That was at 195k miles (a friend of mine was the first owner of the truck, he rebuilt the engine at 90k). I just rolled 255k miles. If I was going to chew a cam lobe, it definitely would have happened in the last 60k miles.
Any of the specialty high zddp oils will work fine if you can get them in the proper viscosity. I like the additive for the convenience and price. I do a full synthetic oil change with an oversize filter for 35 bucks.

Giovanni- Thanks for the tip on the comp cams additive. Is the 1,000+ ppm the sweet spot we should be aiming for? I haven't found any specific info on that, but it looks like it might be the right concentration since the zddp added oils also seem to be around that number.
Found your thread about the larger oil filter (for diesel), very cool thanks, will look into that. Here it is in case anyone else is wondering http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/6984-G54B-oversized-oil-filter

Pennyman- Thanks for the feedback, I checked out he oils you mentioned, and like the Valvoline VR1, they seem to be around 1,200-1,400 ppm, so I'm going to assume that this is the right concentration window.

Other than price (using an additive being cheaper than using a high zinc oil), are there any other advantages to go with an additive like comp cams, eastwood or STP, over the high zinc oil?

[MrPaco]

^^^ Great stuff, thank you!
I think I'll try either the valvoline vr1 (it comes in 10w30, and the price is not too bad when buying a case (https://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-10W-30-VR1-Racing-Motor/dp/B00DJ4FMK2/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?gclid=Cj0KCQjwyLDpBRCxARIsAEENsrIw w9NOYfMRZrtctvczYxEdwP4Lkl-pdnVWCJZUz0MEFtdRTKZfzjIaAoeMEALw_wcB&hvadid=323640943396&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9004857&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=12675258292138095666&hvtargid=aud-676677759484%3Akwd-378211977316&hydadcr=6425_9585699&keywords=valvoline+10w30+vr1+racing+oil&qid=1563192342&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1)), or the comp cams additive, not sure yet.
Is this the one (https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams-159-Engine-Additive/dp/B000CIO86M/ref=sr_1_2?gclid=Cj0KCQjwyLDpBRCxARIsAEENsrK3cQ_Ts 0XYgcX-fLFos1X9LteZcl3XzNCtX5VSCsg4mjcAL7-7GZoaAvDBEALw_wcB&hvadid=177546683415&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9004857&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13856081822821097736&hvtargid=aud-676677759484%3Akwd-35655823874&hydadcr=6371_9585427&keywords=comp+cams+additive&qid=1563192626&s=gateway&sr=8-2) you are using? Or this one (https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams-159-BREAK-ADDITIVE/dp/B003TPLDMW/ref=sr_1_8?gclid=Cj0KCQjwyLDpBRCxARIsAEENsrK3cQ_Ts 0XYgcX-fLFos1X9LteZcl3XzNCtX5VSCsg4mjcAL7-7GZoaAvDBEALw_wcB&hvadid=177546683415&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9004857&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13856081822821097736&hvtargid=aud-676677759484%3Akwd-35655823874&hydadcr=6371_9585427&keywords=comp+cams+additive&qid=1563192626&s=gateway&sr=8-8)?

[Giovanni89]

Those are the same, they just changed the packaging from black to silver bottle. I bought a case of 12 on ebay for under 100 bucks with free fast shipping.

[pennyman1]

BradPenn is a semi synthetic with ZDDP - available through NAPA.

[MrPaco]

BradPenn is a semi synthetic with ZDDP - available through NAPA.

Oh man, just when I thought I had a plan you open up another rabbit hole for me to go down... ok, semi synthetics, here we go...
Just kidding, thank you for the help :grinno:

[xboxrox]

Castrol 10w-40 + one Castrol 20w-50 (summer months)
Castrol 10w-40 (all other months)
WIX Filter

No SMOG checks in Hawaii :P

Hope the hydraulic lifters have enough self adjustment to go 500,000 miles before needing anything more than motor oil :scratchheadblue:

Thanks for this info pennyman & everyone :oldtimer: