1st gen disc upgrade

[85Ram50]

Is there a bolt on one piece caliper on any of the cross matching vehicles that will work on the 85 Ram 50 without changing the spindle?

[85Ram50]

I geezer or someone told me that the second gens would work. I looked up the hubs for an 87 Ram 50 on RA and they don't look right http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=5610093&cc=1096275&jsn=574 My spindles are smooth and widen at the back side that grooved hole wouldn't work. Otherwise its exactly what I want as far as calipers/rotors go. If that is not the right hub assembly let me know the correct years and models to look at so I only have to make one junk yard trip.
Thanks

[pennyman1]

the 2nd gen calipers will work, either 1 pot or 2 pot with an adjustment of the hard line from the caliper to the flex hose for bolt clearance. You also have to change the rotor to the 2nd gen style for the caliper to fit onto the spindle - the rotor offsets are different.

[85Ram50]

the 2nd gen calipers will work, either 1 pot or 2 pot with an adjustment of the hard line from the caliper to the flex hose for bolt clearance. You also have to change the rotor to the 2nd gen style for the caliper to fit onto the spindle - the rotor offsets are different. I don't know what 1 pot or 2 pot means. If it means part I want a one piece caliper. Will I need to change the hubs or just the rotors? Thanks

[geezer101]

^single or twin piston caliper.

[85Ram50]

Thanks this is good to know. I solved my other problem but maybe when I change the pads. Are these parts hard to find? RA had them for an 87 so I figure they do for all the other years.

[86goldmightymax]

Not to change the direction of the thread. But if you have done the Toyota 5 lug swap, then do the 2 gen caliper. Does any one know how this would go with Toyota rotor and the spacer size you would need from that original swap?

[85Ram50]

It has been squealing a bit I might change sooner than later. Probably better that way before they run out of stock.

[85Ram50]

Today I was driving with a half yard of dirt in the bed and some wood and I had to hit the brakes at 50mph and the right front grabbed real hard and the whole truck swerved left as the nose dove down. I had to pump em a bit.
What might cause this? everything is new less than 1K miles on them. The right front is the one I had such a problem putting back together when I did the suspension and new everything on the brakes.
Edit- Now that I think of it the nose dove as it swerved. and since it swerved it must be the left side that grabbed hard or maybe the right side didn't gram at all? Anyway it was squirrely all the way home when I had to brake. When its empty its like its on rails.

[tortron]

The right Front caliper isnt working If it dove to the left

[camoit]

Sounds like it's stuck. Check the thickness of each pad to see if there the same. The sliders can stick if there worn.

[85Ram50]

Thanks Tortron, I started thinking that too. It makes more sense than my initial impression. Cam, everything is new. I assumed the pads were all the same out of the box. I did leave out the anti squeal things but I don't think that should cause it to fail. Now I have an idea. I have a couple of projects this summer to get done Hopefully that goes well and I'll have the time before winter to do the upgrade to 2nd gen discs I found out about after I had bought new hose calipers and rotors for the 1st gen.

[Chyrio]

I'm in the process of doing this right now for my project and I can tell you, the Montero calipers will line up perfectly to the mount holes on a 1g hub with the 2g rotors. you do need to grind a little bit of the caliper off to make it fit right. another thing you have to consider is running a bigger wheel the 2 piston calipers are huge compared to the single piston calipers count on running at least a 16" rim I'd think.
19033
It hits right here.
19034
19035
You'll also need to either get a bolt with a shorter height or grind into the steering arm on the hub.
19036

[85Ram50]

Thanks. A question-The upgrade I thought I knew about was that the second gen d50/mm calipers will bolt up with a second gen rotor no other changes necessary. Am I correct in that? I'm not going up in wheel size I have years left on these tires :)

[Chyrio]

Thanks. A question-The upgrade I thought I knew about was that the second gen d50/mm calipers will bolt up with a second gen rotor no other changes necessary. Am I correct in that? I'm not going up in wheel size I have years left on these tires :)

I believe you are correct on that. I believe the hubs from 1g to 2g are almost identical

[geezer101]

I believe you are correct on that. I believe the hubs from 1g to 2g are almost identical

The general opinion was to perform the front brake upgrade on a Gen 1 was to replace the whole steering hub assembly. The spacing and offset have to be the same between the 2 so there can't be much difference other than a possible cosmetic change in the castings. If it's too OTT to swap the sliding caliper for a twin piston Monty caliper, it's just as easy to to ditch the sliding caliper for a floating caliper off a Gen 2. Automatically solves the issue with using the thicker vented disc and needing a matching caliper. Looks like I won't be doing the big upgrade unless I can find a cheap set of 16's to clear the brakes...

[geezer101]

There needs to be a sticky attached to Gen 1 brake upgrades as this gets asked a lot. You can use Gen 2 calipers and rotors on Gen 1 hubs but if you want to go to the next level and use Montero twin piston calipers, you need to use the entire Gen 2 steering hub assemblies as the caliper mount bolt holes are clocked further away from the steering arm ends which will allow the twin piston calipers to fit without fouling anything (?) - is this right? And 4WD rotors are incompatible with any of the 2WD/RWD assemblies (?)

[Chyrio]

I'm gonna do a write up this weekend when I take this 2g MM apart to swap the hubs Geezer. I don't fully understand why Mitsubishi changed the design on the 2g knuckle though. I mean the caliper is no where near anything for it to hit. Doesn't make sense to me. but Ill find out this weekend.

[geezer101]

I'm gonna do a write up this weekend when I take this 2g MM apart to swap the hubs Geezer. I don't fully understand why Mitsubishi changed the design on the 2g knuckle though. I mean the caliper is no where near anything for it to hit. Doesn't make sense to me. but Ill find out this weekend.

My bet is Mitsubishi used the Gen 2 MM hub design on a couple of different vehicles and needed it to work on single and twin piston floating caliper brake set ups. The brake design on the Gen 1's is pretty archaic and the principle was to have as much of the assembly weight behind the spindle as possible and, due to the slide calipers that were used, there was no chance of it fouling the tie rod or causing clearance issues.

[geezer101]

So I took the plunge and bought a pair of Gen 2 steering hubs and rotors for my Gen 1 brake upgrade. And I can confirm to all that have and will ask this question - yes, the Gen 2 caliper bolt holes are the same distance apart and threads/bolts are the same but are 'clocked' on an angle compared to the Gen 1's. I wanted to go the full deal and use twin piston calipers from a Montero (Pajero in Oz) but I wasn't able to find any in the JY but I did make an unexpected discovery. I noticed a pair of twin pistons on a 1998-2000 4WD Mitsubishi Challenger and decided to try out the fitment on the Gen 2 steering hubs - and they bolted up perfectly. I think the calipers are intended for a bigger rotor but they'll work (unless I can find a rotor to match them). Added note - the Gen 1 and Gen 2 geometries are the same (215mm high from ball joint to ball joint - 135 mm from centre of the bottom ball joint hole to centre of the tie rod end hole)

[85Ram50]

What does "clocked at an angle" means exactly? How did you deal with it?

[royster]

I wonder if Geezer meant "cocked at an angle"?

Since he keeps chopping his fingers off, I'm surprised he can type at all !! :)

[geezer101]

What does "clocked at an angle" means exactly? How did you deal with it?

Instead of the bolt holes running parallel to where the ball joints align with each other, the top caliper bolt hole is directly in line with the ball joints while the bottom bolt hole is located more off to one side. The calipers' relation to the disc is still the same but now it is further up and away from the steering arm end. Put it simply - Gen 2 steering hub assemblies are a nut and bolt swap not needing any modifications. You could use the whole steering hub and brake set up as the floating caliper is an improvement over the fixed caliper on the Gen 1, but due to improved clearance of the Gen 2 design, twin pistons will mount up with the only mod (that I have seen so far...) is bending or maybe notching the backing plates a little.

[geezer101]

I wonder if Geezer meant "cocked at an angle"?

Since he keeps chopping his fingers off, I'm surprised he can type at all !! :)

Ouch Roy, that one stung a bit :lmao:I haven't lost any further digits of late, I sorta more grind them down... And I did mean clocked. Gen 1 brakes mounts holes are at a '12 to 6' relation, while the Gen 2 brake mount holes are more '11 to 5'. Get your Gen 1 brakes fixed folks for cheaps! Better than using the back of a Semi :thumbup:

[85Ram50]

Instead of the bolt holes running parallel to where the ball joints align with each other, the top caliper bolt hole is directly in line with the ball joints while the bottom bolt hole is located more off to one side. The calipers' relation to the disc is still the same but now it is further up and away from the steering arm end. Put it simply - Gen 2 steering hub assemblies are a nut and bolt swap not needing any modifications. You could use the whole steering hub and brake set up as the floating caliper is an improvement over the fixed caliper on the Gen 1, but due to improved clearance of the Gen 2 design, twin pistons will mount up with the only mod (that I have seen so far...) is bending or maybe notching the backing plates a little.

I'm still confused. i get the meaning now but you've added more confusion for me. As I understand it the gen 1 calipers are floating calipers (Solid piece bolted to hub floating piece rests on it.) and the gen two are one piece calipers (everything including piston in one piece) which can have one or two pistons depending on what kind you get. Where is the floating bit on the gen 2 if they bolt up direct?

I also thought you had to get Gen 2 rotors for this to work.

[geezer101]

The 'floating' bit is the part of the caliper that does all the work (the piston housing). It works similar to the fixed caliper but instead of the centre of the caliper moving on metal shims, they are on greased slide pins on top and bottom of the caliper mount sealed in with dust boots. And the first thing I did mention in my previous post that the swap requires the entire hub assembly from a Gen 2 -

"...So I took the plunge and bought a pair of Gen 2 steering hubs and rotors for my Gen 1 brake upgrade."

Mitsubishi was wise enough not to change the bolt pattern even though the brake design had changed. Simply a matter of removing the 2 x 17mm bolts holding the caliper mount on from the rear of the steering hub and the 10mm bolt holding the backing plate onto the end of the caliper mount, and the whole caliper can be pulled away from the hub. Not that you'll need to pull the Gen 1 calipers off if you are intending the brake swap, but it will make it lighter when you knock the steering hub off from the ball joints to remove it.

[85Ram50]

Thanks Geez.

[tortron]

You are faster than me geezer, Ive got a set of 2nd gen spindles and brakes sitting in the garage.

If I ever finish this rust work Il put them in

[geezer101]

You are faster than me geezer, Ive got a set of 2nd gen spindles and brakes sitting in the garage.

If I ever finish this rust work Il put them in

All I need to do now is find $459 to replace all the bushes and ball joints so the steering hubs have something to bolt up to :lmao: That doesn't even factor in new brake hoses, shocks and tie rods...and then I can start work on the rear end. This poor biatch still had all the original factory assemblies in it. Getting the used Gen 2 hub assemblies has so far been the cheapest part of the front end - and that set me back $188 with the twin piston calipers. Let's get back to da thread now!