Starting issues

[85Ram50]

I have had this problem off and on.
It sat all winter. I ended up needing to jump it because the battery ran down trying to start it about 10 days ago. Today the battery ran down and the battery from my other truck started to run down so I quit trying. (I had teh motor out of commission so I couldn't jump it) It had started once but I killed it by giving gas.That usually indicates it is about to start running. I had poured gas in which usually works.
What is causing this? I put in the electric fuel pump which is supposed to solve the previously diagnosed evaporating gas in the carb bowl.. It is getting gas, I can see it and hear the sound change when I press the pedal while cranking. Choke is all teh way open and I take the cover off the aircleaner.

[Salteen]

if it doesnt compress or ignite it wont fire. check the coil, distributor, plug wires, plugs, run a compression test

[t97]

Your most likely not getting spark. Take off a wire off of a plug and set the end against something metalic with a small gap. Youll need to diagnose it going backwards from the plug. Sounds like a good time for a tuneup though a fresh set of wires plugs distributor cap rotor and coil can be had for less than 100 on rockauto. It will give your truck a new breath of life.

Even if you had low compression you would hear erratic firing.

[85Ram50]

Thank You gentleman
I did a compression and leak down test last summer or fall. Coil, cap, rotor plugs and wires are about a year old with less than 5k miles on them. You can find the compression/leak down tests in my post history all was good.
I agree I am not getting spark. I had left the battery disconnected overnight. When I tried to start this morning with the jumper cables attached to my running Dakota, there are no dash lights at all (also an intermittent problem since I first tried to make it better :) This time it was very clear there is no spark taking place in the cylinders. Yesterday and usually when it is hard to start there is spark you can see and feel the motor jumping as a tiny bit of gas gets burnt, but not quite enough.
I'm taking a break. I fear I will have to push it back down the driveway and learn how to read a wiring diagram and chase down the problems in the harness. I'd like to strip it down to only the wires I absolutely need

[Salteen]

when stuff sits it goes bad, keep that in mind.

[Giovanni89]

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-20610-Inline-Spark-Tester/dp/B0002STSC6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=lisle+spark+tester&qid=1589833293&sr=8-1
An inline spark tester is cheap. Testing in open air can be helpful, but you can have a decent spark in open air that can't jump a plug gap in a high pressure fuel laden environment.

[tortron]

Clean up your chassis and engine earth's and then clean up the points, rotor and inside the cap.
you should have lights on at the dash after cleaning the earth's, if not you might have had a mouse go at the wiring somewhere

With lights at the dash
Then check each lead for spark against the block
If no spark, check the coil lead for spark. Then start working back through the connections and clean them up.
If there is spark at the leads, try the plugs against the block for spark.

I'd say it will come right after you do the earth's tho, that's usually the issue I have with stuff that sits (reminds me I haven't started my car in 2 years, woops)

[geezer101]

^and your battery leads and connectors. Sometimes they can corrode from the inside and the damage is near invisible. Cleaning up your ground leads on the chassis and engine goes a long way to killing off gremlins in the electrical system.

[85Ram50]

OK I got an inline tester I am not sure works. I wasn't paying attention and it has a 90 degree boot. I had to pull it off to get it on. #4 and #1 no light. Didn't try the others. I will be looking for one with a straight boot and longer lead.
Loosened up and re-tightened the grounds which were pretty new since I got new battery cables in the last 2 years. The one on the block and frame weren't as tight as I made them after. No effect. I also sanded off the rotor and the contacts in the cap. The Dist is new last year or so. No points Tort. Never fixed me one of them :)
I do not know how I might test the coil. I bought it new and it sat for a year or two before I installed it. There were no signs of a problem before now. I'll look up how to test it with my multi thingy.
Edit- I think my problems with how it runs or doesn't want to start after it sits or when its hot may have been electrical all along. Oh yea all fuses are good.

[85Ram50]

I tested it with the harbor Freight 7 function digital multi meter. After removing the wires from the + and - pins I touched them with the tester and got 0. Then I tested the output of the coil and it read 10.01 ohms. Here is a picture of how I had it set. I am putting it here because I am not used to using meters like this.
25085

[camoit]

How many volts are you getting on the + side of the coil?
You can always run a jumper and power it directly to test. Also test the voltage drop resistor that is before the coil on the + side.

[85Ram50]

I got zero when I touched both the + and -. Touching the+ and output I got the 10.01. I have to got get a remote starter and rewatch the vid on how to test. I will also post a picture of my coil and the bolt on ballast is it? I am not sure of what parts are what. the ballast is OE AFAIK.

[85Ram50]

To answer you directly camo I do not know how to check the voltage.
I followed the instructions in this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU2ySxRUoWo to test for ohms. When I disconnected the wires and touched the -+ pins It started at .02 then went to .00. When I touch the positive and inside the coil output to the distributor plug I get 9.87 today. I haven't figured out how to hook up the remote starter to try the next test.
If I did step 4 on page 8-31 of the manual correctly I got no spark. Which means I have to check the control unit, pickup coil, ignition coil, or secondary cable.
I assume the ignition coil is the main coil in the picture I attached, the pickup will be in the dist which is new and IDk what the control unit is. I took the squarer part in the middle top off, cleaned the connections and added dielectric grease. The fuse leading to it looks good. I'm guessing that is the control unit. When I had it off with the multi at the same setting it also gave me nothing but zero when I touched the 6 pins with pos and neg probe.
Suggestions please.
Is there a coil with an internal ballast I can install on here to clean that up?

25099

[Salteen]

replace the coil! sometimes you get a bad part. i just recently had a defective fuel pump but i instead replaced the old gas tank. i thought i had solved the issue.

[85Ram50]

Ordered coil and new ballast resister.
So what are these parts on RA listed for my truck? Ignition control module and Ignition Conversion kit? The photos of them do not look like anything I have seen on my vehicle.
Reminder i have the 85 2.0 g63b

[xboxrox]

2510025101


My 1986 2.6L truck is running ok; these are pics of the coil & wires area for you to compare... Check all the high tension wires coil & spark plug wires for continuity; they often break when spark plugs get changed... I use a NAPA spark plug boot tool to remove & reinstall plug wires... I suggest using a spray can of starting fluid instead of raw gas to start the truck... For safeties sake, maybe spray the starter fluid through the front grill & into the air intake while squatting in front of the truck... A good squirt should reach far enough to make it start & allow keeping the air filter & air intake closed up... If you have a helper they could squirt the starter fluid while you crank the engine... Keep face away from the air intake in case a blast of fire comes through the filter or starter fluid gets blown back by a back fire... OR, have a good fire extinguisher or other proven method at the ready IF ever starting an engine by pouring gas down an open carburetor... AT LEAST wear safety goggles & have an eye wash method at the ready, back fires can do more harm than burn eyelashes & eyebrows...

Edit: Please use a spray can of starter fluid; anything besides pouring raw gasoline around all over :usa::slap:

[Salteen]

they are CONVERSION kits, aka they swap over to a different type of ignition. most of these conversions are useless unless you have a built engine. there is a pointless conversion kit, which is actually not pointless. use your old distributor and replace the points. pretty pointless, eh?

speaking of, clean up your distributor points and rotor contact and distributor cap contact, maybe that will solve your no spark.

whats the fuel pressure like? take the line off the carb and crank it up, just because a pump may make noise doesnt always mean its pumping.

check the fuel filters too

attempt to start it with starting fluid.

i expect my suggestions to be dud, but better to be safe than sorry. it does seem like the coil may be going bad.

[Salteen]

ps: for when you get it started, go ahead and hook a tachometer up to the coil, a handheld one, so you can monitor the engine speed and idle. :thumbup:

[85Ram50]

AFAIK there are no points in my distributor. At least not the old kind that had to be set. They won't be coming in for about a week.

[Giovanni89]

I cant say with certainty for the 2.0, but I don't think that's a points style distributor. '85 would be very late for a points style distibutor. Should be a ICM (ignition control module) and a reluctor. The ICM is a hall effect sensor, when the reluctor passes by, it triggers the ICM to open the circuit to the coil, causing the spark. This has the same effect as points, but without any wear items in the system. It is common to put a "ignition conversion kit" on old points style distributors. All a conversion kit is, is an ICM that bolts in place of the points. The cam that opens the points usually acts as the reluctor. Again, I'm not sure on the 2.0, but I'm pretty sure my 2.6, the ICM is powered off of the low voltage side of the ballast resistor. If the ICM is hooked up to 12v, pretty sure it will burn up in short order.

[Salteen]

was gonna type a sentence, but i fond this emoji, and this is the best reccomendation i can give at this point.

:google::google::google:

ill check tonight, but i was sure my 82 and 87 both had a points type distributor.

[85Ram50]

That makes sense Giovanni. I looked again after posting and it finally registered with me that the ICM was the same thing with the wires from the new Dist that go to the coil. Could be I affected it as they are like the plug wires I bought on RA, very very tight. Like no extra wire length in them at all.My wires are hooked up the same as Xboxrox. One ICM wire goes to the + on the coil the other to the ballast connection closest to the motor. I assume that is the low side it has run for over a year since I connected it. I drove it about 2 weeks ago. There is a pic in post #13

[geezer101]

IDT think they ran electronic ignition in these trucks after the 79-80 builds (4G32/4G52) I like neanderthal tech points for tuning but the appeal of not having to mess with timing once it's set makes EI attractive...

[Giovanni89]

Found and old picture of my ignition wiring. Looks like you have everything connected correctly. The ICM does run on the 12v side of the ballast resistor.
If you got the lisle spark tester, the lead is reversible. I suspect most are. You can pull the section of plug wire off of the tester and flip it around, with the 90 degree boot connected to the tester and the straight end on the spark plug.

[85Ram50]

I was able to get the spark tester on the spark plug and I was able to trade it in for a straight tester. I think the light not flashing or lighting is indicative of a coil issue along with the ohm reading of zero when I touch the pos and neg posts with the tester. I might put it in the top of the coil to see if it lights or flashes since I have a week before the new "heavy duty" coil comes in. :) .

Xboxrox, I will not be putting my face in the way of flames shooting out of my carb. Thanks for your concern. frequently ether is not enough to kick this thing over when it acts up. Pouring gas into the carb is not as dangerous as you seem to think. You don't try to start it at the same time you are priming the carb for one. :)

[geezer101]

You can get an engine to kick over using aerosol deodorant. Seen it done and have done it myself (freaking funny to watch the first time)

*A helpful tip - get a clean kitchen sponge and soak it in some fuel, then wring out the excess and rest it over the throats of the carb. The residual fuel vapour will be enough to get an engine to fire and run for a few seconds. Pouring raw fuel down the throat of a carb won't have the same effect and having a lake of fuel sitting in the bottom of a manifold and splashed over everything is a catalyst for a flash fire.

[85Ram50]

I'm not making a mess of things or pouring it in like it was the fuel tank. I have a small can and its easy to control the dose.
I have personally used belt dressing on this truck to start it ! :)
I have ether. But some times it will only go with a few drops of straight gas often done several times as it dies once it burns what is in there.
Hopefully it will turn out to be the coil and the starting issue won;t come up again.

BTW what size is the wingnut for the airbox adapter? Is the top supposed to have a grommet as that hole looks huge? And the size of the two nuts that hold it to the OE studs on the valve cover? Since the rain stopped and its sitting there I decided to install it and clean up the other aribox I didn't cut up to put on.
Never mind. The adapter does not work for the air cleaner on the D50

[geezer101]

The air cleaner is supposed to have a wing nut with a captive washer on it. They're all metric M8 threads.

[85Ram50]

Thanks Geez. Moot point at the moment. :thumbup:
I forgot to post here the 99010.302 air filter adapter does not work on my truck. It bolts up top the carb fine it doesn't let the air filter sit on it & its like 2 or 3 inches too high anyway. I have emailed Redline Weber and Carb unlimited to ask what part I need to use.

[xboxrox]

:thumbup:
Stay safe from covid19 too

[85Ram50]

:thumbup:
Stay safe from covid19 too


:) :thumbup:

[85Ram50]

I got the new coil and ballast. The coil clamp was tight to get back on. The ballast had a new style clip I had to cut off. The ballast spring is not molded into the ceramic and the bottom has a small piece that come out. I glued mine in with superglue after cutting off the new style clip. See pictures.
Now the new ballast had the wire and the slip on connector on opposite ends as in the picture of the coil installed without the wires connected.. The way it was when I took it off they were both on the same end. Is this something? It ran but it did like to give problems starting if I did not start it every few days or it got very hot. I'll finish it up in a bit then put the other batteru in again to see if it starts. I fear I may need to take the harness apart and look for shorts.
25127 25128 25129 25130

Edit- Two more things to note. The wire from the distributor has a flat side in the hole for the bottom post. The new ballast does not have a flat side on the post and teh post is not fixed so it drops down if you push on it. Drill out the hole in the connector with 3/16th bit. Or if you have plenty of wire put on a new connector.

[85Ram50]

Fell asleep for a few hours. Went out and tried to start it with no joy. I plugged the spark tester into my running rig and it flashes when the power goes through it and the motor is running. The light is very dim. Almost as dim as that HF timing light I have.
I cannot get it to connect to my coil. The multi meter gives me the same readings on the new coil as it did on the old one. I have no idea how to find where the spark is going missing.
Also Apparently what I thought was the right way to hook up the remote starter switch is wrong. By feel I connected it to the POS post on the starter and the neg bat with no reaction when I pressed the button Then Pos bat no reaction. Then I connected to a different post on the starter and the Pos bat and I could hear the solenoid whir. ?? So I am unsure how I might test anything since i have to get inside the rig to turn the key still. I used ether no luck and gas no luck.

Edit- another question to add. I'm looking at the RA website and the starters have a 12gauge wire with a bullet connector on it. What does that connect to?

[xboxrox]

85Ram50 I'm wishing you well getting up & running -- I joined the no start/hard start club today too... My truck would not start with a warm engine; could not figure if it was flooded or starving for gas... Engine acted dead during cranking then after 4 or 5 or 6 tries & pauses it started but only by keeping the starter motor spinning ON to help turn the engine even after is was half heartedly running... I tried all sorts of gas pedal manuevering (SP?) I had the gas pedal about half open when it finally relunctantly started with the long long help from the starter motor... Once running it drove fine, pretty much... I cannot turn off the engine now for fear it will not start again once the engine is warm... Awful...

I bought a small socket set today & will finally be able to remove the air cleaner easily & chase all the vacuum lines to the carburetor for being connected to the correct spots & check for leaks... I might even look at the choke plate adjust stuff; what a puzzle... I will even read the FSM troubleshooting pages to look for hard starting problems...

HISTORY: (truck ran ok but secondary throttle plate not opening or (?) opening real slow THEN accelerator pump diaphram began leaking gas...)

1) "Rough running upon startup" began after removing then reinstalling the original 1986 Mikuni Carb (worked to replace accelerator pump diaphram/in the process discovered we cracked the carb phenolic body)
2) Same "rough running upon startup" after installing a 1985 Mikuni (we think it was rebuilt) that came off a junkyard truck (broke the 1986 phenolic body as stated above)
3) The truck idles pretty good, pretty smooth, drives then full range pretty much ok (once started)
4) The truck has a new fuel pump (truck is all original stock configuration)

Yuck --
George

EDIT NOTE 1: My truck is California emissions & both the 1986 and 1985 Mikuni carbs are also California emissions...
EDIT NOTE 2: My gut suspects not enough fuel to the engine; might be time to install another new fuel filter/ even go to the trouble of investigating how to access & inspect the IN TANK fuel filter... Oh Boy, I feel your pain...

[Giovanni89]

You want your remote starter switch hooked up to 12v positive with one lead. The other lead should connect to the solenoid. On my 2.6, I have to unplug the solenoid wire and then clip onto the terminal. If your starter has a stud and nut holding the start wire to the solenoid, just clip onto the stud.
HF multi meters are good to keep in the glovebox for things like diagnosing a failing alternator, or a shorted/open circuit. Trying to get an accurate resistance reading with them is pretty iffy.
I would try running a jumper wire from the battery right to the 12v side of the ballast resistor if you haven't already. This will eliminate all of the wiring in the truck as a cause of no spark.

[85Ram50]

xboxrox, I'll look at the filter but it was new when I put in the electric pump last fall. Thanks for the sympathy.
Giovanni I figured it out. My battery is too low to turn it over right now that is why I only heard the solenoid. Is the 12v side of the ballast resister the one where the distributor wire connects to it?
Off to get a battery charger. Seems like I had one once....Hmmmm I'm going to look through my paper FSM

[Giovanni89]

I forgot I had drawn this up a while ago. Might be handy to have. Yes, 12v is distributor side.
25137

[85Ram50]

Thanks for the drawing. That looks like how mine is wired. So I got the spark tester to sit in the top of the coil and plug into the wire and got absolutely no sign of light while I cranked. I have it trickle charging right now. I also took the remote starter S post wire and put it in both of the ballast connectors and when I hit the switch nothing happened and I heard a tiny click. You were right about the blade connector and removing the wire. I had the remote wire clipped to that S post and it would only turn the solenoid until I removed the vehicle wire.
I'm perusing the FSM and am not sure yet how trace this. But I think this means for some reason power is not getting to or through the coil/ballast resister.

[Giovanni89]

If I'm reading this right, you used your remote starter switch to jump to the ballast?
What you should do to find out if the issue is in the wiring in the cab, or a component under the hood, is run a wire from the positive battery post to the 12v side of the ballast. I keep a couple foot piece of wire with alligator clips on the end in my toolbox. Then hook up the remote switch to the starter and crank it over. You should have spark. If you do, the issue is in the wiring coming from the cab. If you do not have spark, there is an issue with the ballast/coil/distributor.
The truck will start and run with that jumper wire even if the key is not in the on position, so make sure you stay clear of the fan/belt.

[85Ram50]

Thank you Giovanni. I just looked at your drawing again. It looks like I missed the + post being on the left I assumed it is on the right in the picture. I need to know which one of the two wires from the dist is which. I do not think I had any wire from the + side to the ballast The one that is long enough goes to the + side of t he coil the other one goes to the lower bolt on the ballast. There is a wire from the top of the ballast that goes directly to the _ on the coil. This is how it was always wired .I have to go do things, the battery is charged I will make a wire with clips and do that test.

[85Ram50]

I did the jumper wire to both ballast connectors. The top one acted like it wanted to start but it felt like it was starving for fuel even though I can smell it plenty. Oh battery indicated full charge this morning. Turning the key on the dash no longer has lights or indicators. This has been an intermittent problem since I installed a radio not long after I bought it. The gauges were working fine after last summers work. :shrug:
I have to think the wires are somehow not correct.
Here are two picture one of the top of the coil and one from the other direction showing the wires. The blue on the + is from the dist. The other wire from the Dist is the black one that runs under the black/yellow one with the blue boot. The blue one on the ballast is for the choke.
I just noticed that the other black wire with a yellow or white stripe is also connected to the same ballast post but it came from a different section of the loom. You can see it in the top down picture.
Does anyone see anything incorrect here?
25141 25142

[Giovanni89]

The coil terminals are reversed. Distributor blue should be to - side of coil. I'm assuming the white wire on the + is a tachometer signal wire. That should also be on the - with the distributor wire.
The jumper from the ballast to the coil is how it gets it's power. That should run to the + side of the coil.

Reversing a coil will cause lower output. The way they work, electricity flows through the primary windings on the + and - terminals creating a magnetic field. When you break off the flow of electricity (which is actually done by breaking the ground on the - side of the coil, blue wire) the magnetic field collapses. The primary winding circuit is now open so the field is forced into the secondary windings and through the coil wire, distributor cap center terminal, rotor, distributor cap outer terminal, plug wire, and finally plug. When you reverse the terminals on the primary windings, the magnetic field that is formed has a different shape, and it does not collapse into the secondary winding as effeciently.

[Giovanni89]

Also, I'm not sure what the second black/white or yellow stripe wire is on the ballast resistor. You would have to follow it in the loom. Could be the voltage sensing wire for the alternator, or something for emissions equipment.

[85Ram50]

OK. I do not have a tack but I wired it as described anyway. It did not start but I have spark at the top of the Dist and at all plugs now. IDk what this means. The loom with the white wire and the black white stripe wire goes across the firewall and it looks like into the firewall on that side. I did not cut apart the zip ties to find out for certain. There is also a two wire ground that comes out in the same place by the coil that is grounded by the Phillips screw that holds the coil mount. I think that loom section also has the temp wire and the wire that was meant for the fuel cut off on the Mikuni.

Side note the clamp for the coil has to be squeezed so tight to get it on the coil gets bent out of shape. ?!? Seems like the newer coils are fatter.

[geezer101]

Err, be careful with squashing the coil (probably too late...) There are internal windings and the oil is supposed to keep everything cool(er). So if you have spark @ the leads but it still won't start this can only mean your timing is glitchy. Bring it up onto TDC #1 cylinder and check the rotor position. If it's "sorta" @ #1 distributor cap post and you can't get it to fire full advanced or retarded timing, you have the "half a tooth" anomaly. Don't ask me how it happens but I have run into it once and it stole 4 hours of my life and did my head in. It can be fixed without butchery - set the timing @ TDC #1 cylinder, then remove the distributor and rotate the shaft so it's pointing @ #4 cylinder distributor cap post, then swap the leads on the cap (#1 to #4, #2 to #3) Take note that all you've actually done is moved the lead positions 180 degrees and retained the corresponding firing order (1,3,4,2) - the distributor drive gear has an odd number of teeth (this is where the 'half a tooth out' comes into play) It aughta fire straight up.

*If this coil is no longer serviceable, I'd change to a solid state transformer coil (used on EFI Mitsubishis) It's got more punch ;)

[85Ram50]

EDIT a few hours later...
I did TDC compression stroke. The rotor was pointing to #1ish. I took the Dist out and it rotated to #3 as I pulled it out so I looked at it a bit, got a feel for how much it rotated when I put it in and reset it for #1 and when I put it back this time it was directly on #1 when it wasn't before. buttoned up tried to start and starter solenoid just spun no turn over! AHHHHHHHHHHHH. The worst item to have to remove on this D50. Put it on a jack stand, took off wheel and have gotten both bolts loose. The top on is killing me I barely get 1/8 turn every 3rd try with the 6" 14mm box wrench. Anyone have any tricks to make this easier or know of a tool that will fit in there and get it off properly? I don't have a 1/4 drive 14mm or 9/16 socket or that would work.
I'm taking a break as my frustration level was making it pointless.
Edit2- How tight should the vacuum advance hose be on the Dist diaphragm? It is really loose and comes off every time I even bump it. That is the hose that cam with the Weber K610 kit.
!!!!!!!:bang::bang:
I might wait on that Geez. Seems like it has to be electric it ran normally when I shut it down last time I used it. The carb even got hot and increased idle when I stopped.
Rain today so I get a break from messing with it.

[geezer101]

Vacuum hoses have gotta be firm. Some bolts are just like that - dude, you need tools. You had the common sense to go through the wheel well so that is about as good as it gets. A 1/2" drive metric socket set is a necessary weapon on Japanese vehicles. The sheer weight of a starter motor will bind up bolts as you back them out so this is always a fun job to do...

[85Ram50]

I have plenty of tools. My 27 year old socket set stops at 13mm for the 1/4" drive which is all that will fit in there. It stops at 1/2" on the SAE 1/4 drive sockets too so no fudging with a 9/16 was possible either. There is no way to get in via the wheel well unless I cut the body. Or did you remove the fender?I was tempted to cut a hole in the floor pan above it to stick a socket extension through. I went and looked at the HF and they had a new set of just 1/4 drive sockets that topped out at 14mm for $8. By the time I got back the rain had moved back in. Made breakfast and waiting for it to end and the water to run off.
When I put this starter in years ago I had been given a different one that was too short but still for the Ram50 according to what I was told before I got this one from the pick&pull. How many of the parts on the short starter are going to be usable on the one I am removing? I figure I'll look up that old vid I saw by an Aussie kid on YT rebuilding one of these starters and have a go at it.

[geezer101]

I'm able to get in under the wheel well to get a hold of the starter motor without a lot of grief compared to diving in over the fender (my truck is STILL on axle stands :rolleyes:) I can get to the bottom starter bolt no problemo, but the upper could do with a shallow socket on a uni joint elbow adapter, an extension bar and a ratchet to get it out. A 1/4" ratchet won't much like being whaled on for something that big but you do what you've gotta do sometimes...

These starters aren't bad to pull apart and if it's only gummed up from crap, a blast of carb or brake cleaner into the brush retainers might be enough to free them up. The commutators get pretty funky as well (the copper contacts can get a few burns from junk building up between them) so clearing those out and a light reface with fine wet and dry will freshen them up. Really clean the starter housing out and add fresh grease to the throw out arm and clean all of the electrical terminals thoroughly. Don't expect it to fire first time - bench test it with jumper leads off a battery until it kicks every shot (I've never had a freshened up starter kick over straight away after being stripped down)

[85Ram50]

This is the only really hard bit on this truck, I have to go at it from the bottom. I have the bolts loose, the 6" box wrench did that on the top bolt and the bottom one is easy to get at. It should come right out now that I have the socket I can hopefully get in there. I don't remember but I think I may have had to do this 1/8 turn at a time last time.

[Giovanni89]

https://www.amazon.com/5841853328-Articulaciones-universales-de-impacto/dp/B01E0G1Q3Y/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=impact+swivel&qid=1590933800&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExUENNVklMQlgwN0VEJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTY0NjA4VEtLQllCNU4wRUlLJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4MTQyNjhWT0RRNU0xSEFVUkEmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl
The best thing for getting to hard to reach bolts sometimes. I have a 1/2 and 3/8 Craftsman. This style of swivel works like a cv joint, and will not bind up like a traditional 2 pin swivel joint. Work great by hand as well as with power.

[85Ram50]

OK got her out.Got it to the end and the thing was too loose for the ratchet and too oddly positioned for my fingers. I looked at it for a bit then realized/remembered what I had figured out the last time. Go in at the top bolt from the top passenger side with the valve cover off! Now I will get the longer ratchet and swivel.
What is this wire that hangs off it? They are on all of the new ones for sale too. Where doe sit connect? That post for the positive battery cable is loose. I imagine that means something right?
I have a picture of the 1/4 ratchet from underneath to show how tight.
25154 25155 25156 25157

Edit- Tested the starter and it was fine. Snapped right into action full extension. I have to think the failure to turn over and maybe the hard starting before that has something to do with the Positive post being stripped on the solenoid. That is a lot wider than the thickness of the connector. It is also loose and wiggles quite a bit.
25158

[85Ram50]

The solenoid has a different plunger than all the ones for sale for the 2.0. The plunger is narrow and has the square hole that hooks over the fork not the nail head looking thing that slips into the fork which means the fork itself is 90 degrees different. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=42742&cc=1096219&jsn=12369

(https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=42742&cc=1096219&jsn=12369)The 85 2.3 motor on RA has two solenoids that look right, one is at the link, but both of them cost as much as two new starters. 3 new starters if you buy one of the 2.6 motor starters.

I take it back I found one online at the only store I did not go to. It costs as much as a new starter! WTF $51.99

EDIT- Turns out this starter is from a MM. I deduce that because the only source for the same solenoid is if I use 85 MM 2.0 as the search term. I think the shorter used starter I got from the junkyard was not working properly when I got it. The new starter at NAPA was the same size as it. OK hopefully someone will clear that up. I ordered the solenoid from RA. And I found a ratchet at Napa that is a very neat design that should solve the problem.
25163

[85Ram50]

New twist I think. I took apart the short starter I have had which was sluggish to clean it. Turns out there are only 3 magnets (Brushes) in it. Every vid I have seen of rebuilding a starter shows 4 magnets. Do I have a defective starter?(maybe was given wrong starter?) or is this something normal? Where would I get a magnet if I needed one? Edit- Looked up brushes on RA for both mighty/ram do not match this style brush assembly. Sorry about the glare on the label. I couldn';t get a clean shot even after adding teh color. It is Mando II 9D24. The II is faint.
25174 25175 25176 25177

EDIT- Somebitch would you look at this! https://iugiscarbon.en.made-in-china.com/product/wvTnzWNHJarQ/China-69-8315-Brush-Holder-for-Mando-Mitsubishi-Dd-Starters.html
Scroll down on the left it lists the brands of vehicles it was used in. I would have sworn there had to be 4 brushed for it to work. That picture is the brush assembly on mine . So I'm gonna clean it up and grease it and see how it tests. It was very sluggish and weak. It never turned my motor over when I got it.

[geezer101]

Ok those things aren't magnets, they're carbon brushes. They do all of the electrical contact work to the commutator (the collar with all of the copper poles on it. If the brushes are hell worn down (which yours aren't) or jammed (they won't press up against the commutator and make good contact) it'll cause intermittent start issues. So this is what I do:

- Get a small seal pick/remover tool and clean the grooves between the copper poles/plates on the commutator to remove built up debris (try not to scratch/gouge the copper, just be careful with it) The junk can cause dead shorts which will decrease how much torque it'll generate.
- Put the drive end of the armature (opposite end from the commutator) in a drill press and on low rpm reface the copper contacts with fine wet and dry sand paper (wrap the paper around something flat so it holds against the entire surface of the contacts in one shot and not just on one small area or you'll reface it unevenly) Make sure it is clean of any oil, grease etc before and during reassembly. If you don't have a drill press, just wrap the paper around the commutator and twist it by hand until the copper looks bright.
*Do not try to take out any grooves as you'll remove a lot of material before you even get close
-Clean all of the built up gunk from inside the starter motor housing and on the brush assembly (your brushes look clean in your pics so that's ok) and add fresh low melt grease to the throw out arm
-I don't generally mess with the starter solenoid. It's an electro magnet and trying to take it apart is courting trouble. Make sure the anchor bolts are firm and you can't twist the solenoid housing around.
-Don't try to reface the ends of the brushes. These things are hell brittle and will crumble the minute you try to tamper with them. They will bed themselves in after a few starts (don't expect it to work first try thus the advice of bench testing until you get continuous successful tests)

[85Ram50]

I figured out I was getting magnet wrong later. I first called them springs :shrug: when I was writing.
Well it is back together, in two pieces anyway. The paint I grabbed off the shelf in my garage dries real slow so I will have to wait until tomorrow to attach the solenoid to bench test it. The armature was black and there was very little grease and what was there wasn't where it should have been and was very hard. Had to use xylene to break it down. I used dabs of red high temp grease. I did what you recommend Geezer. I also watched the 10 year old vid from Jay the Aussie and this one before I tore it down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tN3vhIW3Fc. I only had 400 grit wet/dry. It looks good enough. Bit of a pain getting it back together but otherwise no surprises. I expect it was sluggish and weak because there was no grease on either end and what was in there was hard as well as the armature being so dirty it probably was not getting good contact. Watched this too. Didn't try it on mine because my solenoid looked to hard to take apart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eUmT5IpwuM Cool vid and good to know.

[geezer101]

First video wasn't bad. Let us know how your bench tests go :thumbup:

[85Ram50]

It's a pretty paperweight!
I tested it and the pinion snapped fast several times as my unsteady hand slipped with the jumper several times. Once I got steady it snapped then spun slowly and gained speed to a nice whir. Then I stopped and tried it again and I got nuttin:( IDK what's up. I soldered the wire that no one seem to know where it should connect off cleaned up the end then soldered it back on. Here's a couple of pics of my pretty new paper weight :)

25178 25179

[camoit]

So the wire that hangs off was it connected to anything? Normally when there is a wire like that it's to send power somewhere when the starter is energized

[Giovanni89]

Pinion snapping out fast means the solenoid is working correctly. Slow then no spin means there's probably a short in the windings somewhere. I'm guessing that with all the cranking it's been doing lately, the very old epoxy in the wires finally cooked off. But it sure is purdy. Maybe you can swap some guts and salvage your nicely painted case.

[85Ram50]

Camoit, all the starters I have seen for this rig had that wire and it has only been connected to the hot wire for the Mikuni cut off solenoid (By a Dodge mechanic who didn't help me much really) which I believe according to Geezer is dead wrong.

This is a different starter Giovanni. I had it sitting around thinking it was wrong for my truck because it did not match the other one. I figured out the only diff was cosmetic. The one I had in is MM style this one is the Ram 50 style. I also was fooled because I did not know much 13 years ago when it made noise but did not turn the truck over. I bench tested it before taking it apart and it was really weak.
Anyway I guessed it was my ground and sure enough I came out and wire wheeled the face of it and set it on the vice like that and it worked fine. I put it in it didn't want to work with the key then not with the remote I thought I did something wrong and then the remote kicked the motor over like it was doing its job. The keye worked to turn it over too after that. It quit messing with it as it quit turning over. I think it is either the wiring from ignition and to the coil (It was kicking over with a wire off and the nuts loose on the ballast) or maybe the battery is drained again since I never got it started and charged by the generator, only by the plug in charger.
So now I am trying to take off that box on the passenger kick plate which one section of the harness a couple of these wires at the coil are in lead to. IDK what it is. Really hard 11mm nut to get at without removing my dash again. The harness connectors pulled out this time! I tried like heck last year with no luck when I was doing the cab. I'm hoping there will be answers in that box once I open it.'

So as it is I still don't know what is making it not start but it definitely seems electrical. That new wrench $76! made it easier but its still a pain to mess with the top starter bolt. I could only use it from the top when the bolt is almost all the way in. Should have got one with the shaft that had a swivel in it instead of the head. It let me get at it from below and turn a full 1/4 each time though. That's a lot better than 2 clicks on a 1/4 drive ratchet.
In case it is not clear the new solenoid for the other starter is due in Saturday. So if it is this starter being iffy I'll have that one fixed.

[85Ram50]

So it is the ECM. Who knew. I wonder if it was playing any role in this thing running since everything it might have controlled has been disconnected?
Is there a wiring instruction on here for just wiring the absolute necessary stuff? I mean lights, radio, dash, and whatever needs wire on the motor. I'd like to put in a 90 amp generator. too.

Here are a couple pf pics of the inside. The cover reflected glare so much nothing showed up clear. It had these numbers printed on it in 3 lines MD081123, E2T53971,4912

25180 25181

Edit- Found this in the wiki. http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showwiki.php?title=Electrical+System:The+Starter+p lus+R+and+S+Terminals
Tells me what that wire is for. Still have no idea where on the coil it might connect.Onward ho!

[geezer101]

The ECU only runs the feedback systems on the carb AFAIK. This was waaaay before CANBUS and all the other fun nightmares waiting to screw up in a car. I don't think I've heard of a feedback ECU failing but never say never. The only way you'll know if you have a bad winding in the starter is to probe all of them. Full charged battery + good external connections/leads + correct timing, but weak crank = starter fault. Make sure you get the one that matches your transmission. Auto and manual starters don't swap and it'll damage something like the ring gear or itself (they have a different teeth count)

[85Ram50]

I found this in the Wiki, saw it when logged out never saw the diagrams on top and bottom when I was logged in. http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showwiki.php?title=Electrical+System:The+Starter+p lus+R+and+S+Terminals
I'm going to cut open my looms and find these wires trace them for shorts and try to eliminate all the wires that are no longer in use. That extra wire on the starter is apparently supposed to be a source of 12V from the ballast resister when starting. I'm not sure I understand all that I read but I can follow the pictures :) You reminded me to go put the charger on the battery again.

[85Ram50]

Nothing much has changed. I started stripping the sheath back on the harness. I did one section from the brake fluid holder to midway across the firewall one section with the Temp wire and the black/white wire from the coil. I found a bullet connector just before the wiper motor and the wire it is on is small black/white with red dots along the white stripe. Any idea what it is? The bullet connector looks like it burnt out, has a hole in it, and is only hanging on by a couple threads in the wire. I suspect it belongs to the Mikuni or smog system that is long gone.
Picture 25192

[geezer101]

The thick black wire/white stripe is live ignition power (confirmed) If it's not connected to anything, cut off the connector and cap it off before taping it back into the harness. You can do a voltage test on it with ignition off/on and maybe add a female spade connector to it and leave it for a possible power feed for a later date, otherwise just ignore it.

[85Ram50]

I put a female spade and heat shrink on it. There was no indication of power key on or off. There is a 4 way split in the black white stripe wire. One goes to Ballast Resister. Two go two the two smog things. The fourth one goes to a plug which I just saw in the close up in the picture and it has two black white stripe wires in it. So there must be another splice somewhere. I didn't uncover the last 8 inches of that plug branch so probably there. I have no idea what the plug is for except the smog or Mikuni.

The 4 way was only covered in elect tape but as you can see it was good enough. I put heat shrink on it before I retaped. I put the computer back in. I wired the coil back up and tried testing which post had 12v with the key on so I could know which one to attach the wire from the starter to. They both read 11.8 when I use the DCV 200 scale on the multimeter ???? The first pic shows the coil wiring (blue wire from distributor is to+post) and those two black things on the fender right of coil are where two B&w stripe wires go from the splice. Second picture is the 4way splice and the fixed wire. Last shows the plug before I retaped.
251952519325194

[xboxrox]

Your coil connections look correct, but I think my ballast has only 3 not 4 wires on the blue end... I notice you have the correct black ground wire on the coil mount bracket...

Keep at it brother :thumbup:

[85Ram50]

The blue wire that goes left is to the electric choke. The black w/stripe one on the left is one of the 4 spliced wires I mentioned, the black wire with red heat shrink is from the distributor, the other black w/stripe wire from the right is from a different section of harness I did not open up that goes into the fire wall. The Dodge mechanic I paid to work on it before I started to try to figure it out myself connected the choke to the ballast, I never questioned it.

[geezer101]

The wire for the electric choke should be pre-ballast voltage AFAIK. Having an accessory running off it may be loading up the coil/ballast by drawing more voltage/current off it than it should. Hmm, this could even be the root of your running problem? :shrug:

[xboxrox]

85Ram50,

I can't prove it but I think my truck (as far as electrical stuff) was all original wires & connections when I got it from the govt auction (a NAVY owned maintenance truck) It has never had four wires on either end of the ballast piece... 1985 & 1986 years trucks might be different (?) my truck is a California emissions build...

We replaced the ignition switch about a year ago and doing so cured an intermittent slow starter cranking speed problem... MitsubishiPartsCentral still has OEM Mitsubishi switches... There is only a screw holding it to the key part so it's just plug & play NO need to change any keys 'n stuff...

When my brother owned the truck he had to get the starter replaced twice... I think it was pennyman(?) here that said a starion starter fits and is a much better starter than the original for the truck...

Maybe Santa will come early and a box from Rock Auto will arrive at your place with a new Mitsubishi Starion Starter... :merryxmas:
Aloha--
George

[85Ram50]

1. Where is the electric choke meant to get power from?
2. Where is that extra wire from the starter meant to get power from? Should it be always on power, or only powered when cranking? I think I understood the wiki to say it supplies 12v during cranking.
3. Looking for picture of ignition switch. :)
I rebuilt the starter I took out, with the new solenoid.
Found this while searching for the ignition switch http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/1531-1985-Ram-50-won-t-start-I-m-throwing-down-a-challenge-to-all-mechanics-out-there going over it now.
And I found this in that link xbox you devil you http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/album.php?albumid=569 Good to know!
Third edit- Sent email to see if they have the part MB031704 on hand. Can you confirm this is the correct switch Xboxrox? It says for 85 MM base model.

[85Ram50]

I decided to remove the ignition switch to have it for comparison. It looks new. The PO must have changed it. I also lost a piece of it, the bakelite or ?? piece that covers the second part that screws into the back side. I also discovered a previous short in the harness from the wiper and turn signal switch. I scraped it with a tool and put dielectric lube on it. It looks very old.
So if anyone knows where to find this ignition switch, I'm hoping a new one will come with that piece. You'd think I could find it as it never left the area under the steering wheel but nope. It is the piece you can see clean copper on the first picture.

25198 25199 25200
This is the short 25201

[xboxrox]

MB414579 ignition switch is what I ordered, your switch's wires & connectors look same... So it's a safe bet this switch was used for several model years... The FSM names that other copper looking connector as the KEY REMINDER SWITCH -- all I know about it is my truck has ZERO bells whistles or buzzers ding dings and the courtesy light don't work either he he Love IT
Mitsubishi Parts Central is a site run by the parts dept of a Texas (?) Mitsubishi dealership
CONTACT Gary (214) 372-7850

Gary is the BEST -- tell him George in Hawaii says HELLO :thumbup:

[geezer101]

Any ignition power should be connected from the harness side of the coil/ballast (power going in) There already should be an ignition power feed suitable for the carb as the Mikuni needed it for the fuel cut solenoid (it will/should be a female bullet connector black+white stripe unless the PO lopped it off :rolleyes:) No random wires hanging off that side of the harness?

[geezer101]

Any ignition power should be connected from the harness side of the coil/ballast (power going in) There already should be an ignition power feed suitable for the carb as the Mikuni needed it for the fuel cut solenoid (it will/should be a female bullet connector black+white stripe unless the PO lopped it off :rolleyes:) No random wires hanging off that side of the harness? And that wiper socket looks nasty - water got into it or something...

[85Ram50]

Xbox I was searching MB031704 which is what came up on several Mitsu sites for the 85 MM. I searched that number you have and I came up with an ignition lock. I was probably missing something. When I get a phone line I'll call your guy. My phone no worky. 19 days today. Still no help the lady I email with is sickeningly polite and unhelpful. Supposedly someone will be fixing the line tomorrow.
Geez, I used that Mikuni fuel cut off wire for the fuel pump and it was hooked up to the starter by that Dodge mechanic. I though the starter wasn't supposed to have always on power? My head hurts. :)
Edit-Duh I reread your post geez. My brain no worky well today. :) I was going to hook the starter to the 12v side of the ballast but I could not determine which one was because both indicate 11.8v when the key is on. I think the one on top that gets the b/wstripe wire from the 4 way splice is probably where it should go. The b/wstripe wire that comes from the switch is in the other harness and goes to the other side of the ballast.

[xboxrox]

Xbox I was searching MB031704 which is what came up on several Mitsu sites for the 85 MM. I searched that number you have and I came up with an ignition lock. I was probably missing something. When I get a phone line I'll call your guy.

It is for the ignition switch https://www.mitsubishipartscentral.com/oem-parts/mitsubishi-ignition-switch-mb414579

Hopefully, Gary can find you one... He ordered me an original radiator cap that has both English & Japanese stamped warning on top; he ordered it from Japan, non were available in USA...

[geezer101]

OK, you had to pull power for the fuel pump from somewhere and that was a pretty good call. Looks like you're making a fly lead from the ignition switch side of the coil for the electric choke. An eyelet connector on one end and a female spade terminal on the other - too easy :thumbup:

[85Ram50]

Yes but which is the ignition switch side of the coil :) Right now it is hooked up to the ballast resistor which shows a 11.8v with key on. But you know I have never seen this choke anything but fully open.

EDIT-
I decided to try to figure out where power to the coil came from with the key on. I removed the wires on the lower ballast resister connection and pulled the blade connector wire off the top pin. I turned on the key and the only wire that had power (12v) was the one in my pictures with the blue boot on it. All of the other wires were dead. That wire comes from the branch of harness I did not open and have assumed comes direct from the ign switch.
I put it all back together with a new improved choke wire and tested with the key on. Both posts on the ballast resister, the pos and neg post on the coil and the outlet from the coil to dist all tested as having 12v. Is this right? Am I using the multimeter wrong or ??? Picture of the multimeter I am using here. I have it set at 20DCV

25202

[geezer101]

Nope, nailed it :thumbup:Multi meters are your best bud

[85Ram50]

That helps narrow things down.
It wanted to start but didn't. I made another splice into the power wire for the extra starter wire. It cranks over strong a couple times then loses umph and stops then barely turns over and stops. I had the battery charging and used the 50amp booster on it when trying to start no luck. I just took the battery in to be tested and he told me it was in good shape and fully charged for a 5 year old battery. down to 500 a something from 600 a something new. Cells were good.
So tomorrow, weather allowing, I will try the battery out of my Dakota which has worked before. If that gets it I'll go for a new battery. If not I'll put the other starter in, just in case the this one is what is losing umph while turning over. Oh yea the dash started working again.
Has anyone got a complete set of instructions for putting a higher amp alternator in the first gen? I have the impression from the instruction I read for the 2nd gen, it was exclusively for the second gen because of differences in wiring.

[85Ram50]

The other battery did not help. I have the starter removed and the other one in with the bottom bolt snug. I stopped as it started raining and I was very wet. Discovered I can lay on the motor with the vale cover off and get one arm down the back and the other around under the intake to deal with that top bolt. Still a pia. :) Probably best to leave the bottom bolt fully tight until you get the top one all the way undone.
edit- be careful of the metal head gasket its like a razor.

EDIT- Got it in. It cranks over good which means the other starter was defective in spite of how good those brushes looked. No start but it did want to. If I held the key all the way over a couple cylinders fired but it wouldn't sustain a chain reaction. I got soaked again. I will remove the plugs & put it at TDC, check my Cam timing mark then set the timing on the Distributor again and hopefully that will do the trick. Something is slightly off but I can't think of what. I really wish I had never rebuilt that other Weber carb the first time all those years ago! :bang:

[85Ram50]

OK I put it at TDC. Rotor was pointing at #1, the cam timing mark if it is what I think it is (pic attached) is less than 1mm off if it is off at all. I put a level across from the casting mark inside the timing belt gallery. Is that cast line the mark to match the cam too? 25207
Trying to start it turns over strong then it loses power. It feels like something is catching or the battery is dying. It turns over easy by hand so I am reluctant to think something is broke but I may have lost a rod bearing all those years ago when I blew the head gasket. That would have stopped me by now though wouldn't it? Oil is full. plug gaps good. Spark tested every plug and got spark.

[xboxrox]

85Ram50 -- is it possible your carburetor is flooding the engine..? Have you already checked for it..?

All else being good electrically on my truck (except for black carbon fouled spark plugs that still surprisingly spark good) the engine will not start... Even shooting starter fluid into the carb air intake did NADA no sputters no trying to start or run DEAD MEAT...

We know damn well it's getting spark & timing is set correctly, distributor is fine... This history & seeing fluid down the carb throat when trying to start the engine has lead us to believe the engine is flooding... YouTube has a ton of videos most naming the common cause as the needle seat is leaking or gas is getting around the seat past an O ring or other seat passage and/or incorrect float level setting... Wished we would have opened the carb before just bolting it on (it came from PicknPull wrecking yard) anyway...

Hey, life is good, the feds & cops are not knocking on my door for anything :P and I'm mostly caught up on paperwork & paying bills :thumbup: 'n no covid19 yet...

Man how I feel your frustration; I gotta wait for RockAuto parts delivery 6/17 & an Amazon ultrasonic cleaner machine delivery 6/23 this one: iSonic Professional Grade Ultrasonic Cleaner P4820-WPB with Heater and Digital Timer, Plastic Basket with shipping it came to $95.00 which is $2.00 less than the Harbor Freight cleaner + having to buy the plastic basket separate at extra cost $97.00...

:steamingears:<---- Pine Sol or Simple Green HD

[85Ram50]

ooops

[85Ram50]

Mine has always had puddles of gas in the intake. It never seemed to affect how it ran. The only problems I have had starting it are due to how long I leave it sit. Once it starts it will run and start normally as long as I do it every 3-4 days. I just forget to and.....:) This is the first time it has been do finicky about starting. Usually pouring gas in 3 or 4 times does the trick.
Posted so I can look at my old wiring
25210 25211

[85Ram50]

It Lives!
I put the coil wires back the way they were and charged the battery some then poured gas in the carb and goosed it with the 50amp boost and it started. Drove it a few miles. I'll see in the morning if it starts again.

[geezer101]

Your cam timing mark is correct. I only use it as a guide as there are so many small deviations caused by wear and tear, belt tension, small differences in machining and aftermarket parts etc that at the end of the day you have no guarantee that it's 'perfect' - just in the ball park. Then when you do things that move away from factory original you've heading into uncharted waters (like the Weber - it runs differently and is sensitive to ignition tune, air flow) You have to experiment with it and each engine is slightly different which makes it that much more of a challenge.

[xboxrox]

It Lives!
I put the coil wires back the way they were and charged the battery some then poured gas in the carb and goosed it with the 50amp boost and it started. Drove it a few miles. I'll see in the morning if it starts again.

:thumbup:

[85Ram50]

Your cam timing mark is correct. I only use it as a guide as there are so many small deviations caused by wear and tear, belt tension, small differences in machining and aftermarket parts etc that at the end of the day you have no guarantee that it's 'perfect' - just in the ball park. Then when you do things that move away from factory original you've heading into uncharted waters (like the Weber - it runs differently and is sensitive to ignition tune, air flow) You have to experiment with it and each engine is slightly different which makes it that much more of a challenge.

Once I got it running I "timed" it by ear. I did start it once more before I went to bed. This morning its raining again so no hauling stuff yet.

[85Ram50]

Started after a couple scary key turns with the starter spinning but not turning anything. (ring gear?) Then it caught and ran fine. Drove around set my radio stations. Noticed turn signals not working at all and now my headlights and possibly brake lights are not working. Then on the last stop when I started back up and the memory of the radio was empty again which means it lost power. When I got to the house I wiggled the 3 harness coming off the steering column and the headlights came on. When I tried the turn signals and emergency flasher I lost headlights and neither setting of the signal lights worked.
I suspect that this electrical fault, where ever it is, has been my starting problem all along.

[xboxrox]

About 5 years ago when my brother had our truck; he paid to get a new headlight turn signal wiper emergency flasher SWITCH assembly installed at his local auto repair shop... He said they had a heck of a time trying to locate the switch, but eventually did and it was not cheap (under $300.00 I think) You might need to buy a new switch assembly ~

I just checked RockAuto, it's out of stock :thumbdown: try MitsubishiPartsCentral

[85Ram50]

#MB382800
I called B&R auto wrecking and found an 84 at a local yard. Went out to it and the guy behind the counter tells me it is in the restricted section ready to go to scrap and the switch has been removed. I almost left then asked if I could get the harness that it plugs in to. I had to wait about 20 minutes and a puller kid came in and drove me directly to it. The switch was there on the removed column laying on the seat and it wasn't even attached. I got the harness out cut on the outside of the the firewall and some up into the dash area. The Ign switch was gone which I think is what the counter guy mistook.
He asked what I wanted to pay and I had $12 cash so I gave it to him and we are good. Bought some contact cleaner, another $11 on the way home. I got soaked and dirty out there but I was chauffeured to and from which usually takes about 30 minutes or more of the trip out there. deepening on what I am carrying. I will wait for a bit to think about how I will fix it. I think the easiest way would be to pull and replace the part of the connector that shorted on the veh side and then try both switch units to see if they work properly.
I'll post pics once I start messing with it.

[geezer101]

You got lucky - right place at the right time. Too bad you didn't have time to pull the whole harness. Fingers crossed this will solve some of your gremlins :pray:

[xboxrox]

#MB382800
I called B&R auto wrecking and found an 84 at a local yard.

Yeah you got lucky; small world, I went to B&R once when I lived in Everett, WA to get a part for my 1994 Chevy Caprice, it was a good yard... Also, they were the only yard to give a reasonable shipping quote for sending me a Ram50 passenger door to Hawaii (they wanted $450.00 shipped) a great price at the time compared to everyone else...

Got repair manuals..?
George

[85Ram50]

I thought about it geez but I didn't have enough tools to remove the dash and everything to get at it properly. I'm glad I got the branches I did so I can replace the damaged connection. I'm hoping the damage is limited to that connector. Should be dry tomorrow hopefully I can peel back the tape on the harness in the truck to see what I am dealing with.
I have a FSM George. The wiring diagrams are too small and confusing to read without someone knowledgeable to describe what I am seeing. If I could get them blown up to poster size I could trace the lines in them and eventually figure them out.They also leave a lot to be desired in how they describe things and what they leave out. It was useless for dealing with the coil and ballast resister.

[85Ram50]

I took the tape off the one I brought home and cleaned the switch up. I then unpeeled the harness in my truck about 6 inches back and cleaned it good with the contact cleaner. Seems the dielectric grease was a bad idea as the real problem there is that the male post that shorted burned the wall away between two connectors. The grease was just helping it short more. So now that its clean both switches work. I have the one I grabbed in there now and O finally got the load of stuff I set out for weeks ago. I think those connectors are put together by pushing the wire through the connector housing, then adding the wire connection to the wire and pulling it back into the connector housing. I am hoping I can find a housing and new connectors so I don't have to take my seat out and lay in there soldering and heat shrinking each wire to install the new housing. The new housing, the male side that goes to the switch from this truck is just as clean. Edit- Duh, lights and turn signals working fine. hauled a yard of fir bark mulch and 12 10lb stones like it was empty. Still idling up and running hotter on the temp gauge than I would like.
25216

[85Ram50]

25216

I have quoted the picture into this post. Can anyone find the part number for this connector? I am talking to a NOS parts salesman who needs the number to search for it. He did not recognize the picture.
I have also purchased a terminal removal tool set hoping to be able to just undo the connector from the harness and only have to change out 1 or 2 wire ends to put it all in to the new to me connector housing. As is there is still a danger of a short across that gap where the plastic wall should be.

[tortron]

A generic 12 pin molex connector may fit 25226

Cheap enough to try.
Id go ahead and swap it for a Deutsch connector personally

[geezer101]

^ a solid plan. I'd re-pin the harness to a new connector but be aware that this will grief anyone if they have to work on it or replace something later. There's every chance that particular OEM socket is available somewhere but you may have to buy it in bulk...

[85Ram50]

Wrapping this up.
Got the connector switched. Starts easy when it catches. It sounds like the solenoid is kicking the starter gear out but its just barely catching the edges of the ring gear. I think I might have some worn or missing teeth on my ring gear. I don't want to take it apart to check as I still have to catch up with what I was supposed to be doing for the last 6 weeks.
Dash lights quit again so that means I haven't actually solved that problem. At least the short in the connector is fixed.

Edit- effin weird the dash lights work just a few minutes ago and I was checking something and turned the key on.
Edit 7-2-20- Figured it out, The solenoid has come loose! one more time.........:bang: later that day...I just undid the two bolts, took it out and pointed it down, tightened the two screws with a screw driver. When I went to start it it spun a few times again?? So maybe the flywheel ring gear is damaged? Anyway it starts easy when it catches.

[Derek514w]

Pull the ECU out. Just unplug the connectors and there is 2 bolts holding it in. It's at the passengers right ankle. Open the ECU and look at the capacitors before you waste anymore time and money. They go bad after 25+ years lol. They will become corroded and the fluid leaks out of em and you will have the exact issue your having right now.

[85Ram50]

Pull the ECU out. Just unplug the connectors and there is 2 bolts holding it in. It's at the passengers right ankle. Open the ECU and look at the capacitors before you waste anymore time and money. They go bad after 25+ years lol. They will become corroded and the fluid leaks out of em and you will have the exact issue your having right now.
There are actually two bolts at the bottom and a nut at the top right behind one of the connectors where it is grounded that is a bear to remove unless you take the ducts out. See post #62, I had it out and it looks good. I do not think it is doing much of anything for my truck since it is for controlling the Mikuni and I have a Weber.

[Giovanni89]

There are actually two bolts at the bottom and a nut at the top right behind one of the connectors where it is grounded that is a bear to remove unless you take the ducts out. See post #62, I had it out and it looks good. I do not think it is doing much of anything for my truck since it is for controlling the Mikuni and I have a Weber.
I believe you are correct. The emissions box is not the same as the ECU. Capacitor failure in the ECU only applies to fuel injected engines I believe.

[tortron]

Emissions box is the Feedback carburetor system (FBC)

some numbers for checking
Throttle position sensor
output voltage
2.4 L engine - 0.28 to 0.52v
3.0L engine - 0.4 to 1.0 V
resistance (at closed throttle) 3.5 to 44 ohms

egr control solenoid valve resistance 36 to 44 ohms

engine coolant temp sensor resistance
32F - 5.9 k-ohm
68 - 2.5 k-ohms
104 - 1.1 k-ohms
176F 0.3 k-ohms

motor position sensor resistance (2.4l models)
4 to 6 k-ohms

oxygen sensor output voltage
1990 2.4L models 1 volt
1991 2.4 and all 3.0L models 0.6 to 1 volt

purge control solenoid valve resistance
36 to 44 ohms at 68F

[tortron]

25436
25437
25438
25439

[xboxrox]

1986 FSM has similar pages for the 2.6L as well -- Off topic ---> PM me if anyone knows the exact specs of the Mikuni carb O rings
:smurfpapa:

[85Ram50]

1986 FSM has similar pages for the 2.6L as well -- Off topic ---> PM me if anyone knows the exact specs of the Mikuni carb O rings
:smurfpapa:
The picture of the Mikuni control module is in post #62. This is a 2.0 motor. G63B

[xboxrox]

Just looked at your photos in post # 62 and from tortrons shout out posts this computer control module does not incorporate OBD1 which musta come later in the Gen2 trucks... I dunno if my 86 truck has a ECM connector port under the drivers side dash -- I think not, it's been almost 4 months since I been in the truck... I believe tortron is also correct about Gen1s not having a CEL I've never seen one on my dash panel...

One of my favorite cars was a 1989 Chevy Celebrity 2.8L auto 4 door sedan... If I remember correctly it had no OBD1 but did have an amber colored dash CEL & a connector port under the driver side dash... If I remember correctly I learned to use a paper clip to bridge 1st & 2nd left side pins and the check engine light would flash like Morse Code to give trouble codes when the key was rurned on... Short & long pauses & quick light flashes... Had to be ready to count the # of flashes and wait for the pause before the next # flash... There was a list of codes either in the owners manual or online, I forgot... Had to replace the computer on that car at Chevy dealer, expensive $500+ but they said it would have the latest updates providing better MPG and big boost in power... They were not fibbing, burned rubber & could easily beat a Ford Mustang GT to 60MPH+
:grin:

Anyway
Keep Safe People

Well anyway

[tortron]

I have pulled apart a 1st gen instrument panel, there's no check engine light

[xboxrox]

I have pulled apart a 1st gen instrument panel, there's no check engine light

and no SERVICE ENGINE SOON light yeah? They knew the truck would act up if it needed srvc LOL

[85Ram50]

There is a switch near where the belt buzzer plugs in that turns a light on the dash off. I forget if it is a cel or service engine light but it bugged me a lot when I bought it until I discovered that switch turned it off. I just checked and the dash lights aren't working again. I'm hoping that is due to a ground being disconnected and the trans being out. I guess I'll find out when I get the parts and put it back together if the dash works :)

[xboxrox]

There is a switch near where the belt buzzer plugs in that turns a light on the dash off. I forget if it is a cel or service engine light but it bugged me a lot when I bought it until I discovered that switch turned it off. I just checked and the dash lights aren't working again. I'm hoping that is due to a ground being disconnected and the trans being out. I guess I'll find out when I get the parts and put it back together if the dash works :)

85Ram50 no dash lights is not cool -- hope you find the problem asap... My dash lights work ok (I think?) but I got no sound alarms buzzers or bells whistles or the like -- that's ok with me -- early aircraft din have em either (I think?) and flying then must have been just as dangerous as driving public roads is today -- he he

;]

[geezer101]

The switch is for the engine service notification. It triggers at certain odometer readings. It's not a 'check engine' light but it's close enough... I think only US market trucks had them and they were only introduced from 85 onwards :shrug: I haven't seen one in an Oz delivered truck but that doesn't mean we didn't get them.

[85Ram50]

OK I'll close this thread.
The flywheel balance seems to have been my problem as well as an intermittently failing alternator. The flywheel was missing one of the three pins that hold the pressure plate aside from it being rounded over in some spots. That seems to have been enough to cause a problem with how the motor ran. The alternator which I replaced with a 90 amp Pure Energy is self explanatory. I had to make mods for that alternator to work, search for the Nippon Denso thread on alts.