Stick your head in Doo Doo, "Daniel Tosh.0 2011" Comedy central.
Really need a wrench that is so tweaked out just to fit them 4 base carb bolts for these webers. Darn things are a pain.
Stick your head in Doo Doo, "Daniel Tosh.0 2011" Comedy central.
Really need a wrench that is so tweaked out just to fit them 4 base carb bolts for these webers. Darn things are a pain.
Oh yeah almost forgot I also ended up getting a set of mm stubby combination wrenches from Autozone that that aided installation greatly. They made the job much easier, that's for sure.Originally Posted by BradMph
Stick your head in Doo Doo, "Daniel Tosh.0 2011" Comedy central.
Really need a wrench that is so tweaked out just to fit them 4 base carb bolts for these webers. Darn things are a pain.
Can't believe I did it w/o one the first go-round.
Found that out too...
I have had computer modem issues, just got that fixed so here's the dilly.
The "counterfeit" Weber I had installed on the motor in 2007 is history. It was a DGEC and if I'm not mistaken, it is what is what I saw named in another thread as a "Weber/Solex". Bottom line- the DGEC that I got from WeberDirect in 2007 is a POS with limited tunability. The idle jets and idle jet holders are made into one piece. WTF?!?!?! The DGEC is 300CFM when a genuine DFEV is 385CFM. The truck will run with one of those pieces of junk on the motor, but they are not the best choice. A DGEC is genuine gutter trash which is made of metal.
The truck runs a million times better with the DFEV intalled. The surging at low engine speeds "off idle" is gone. The best way to describe how the truck feels now is "energized". Like how a human feels after a good exercise workout.
I am going to obtain every idle jet size both primary and secondary for that carb and start doing the "trial and error" thing to secure the best drivability. It's close, but I think can fiddle with it some more to achieve even better. That will happen after the weather cools down a bit. I just don't like working under hood on a hot motor on 90+ degree days. Not my cup of tea.
I am still struggling with "run on" and am starting to believe these 2.6s are just prone to do it and it is typical of them.
If I adjust the idle to about 9-1000RPMs with the A/C off, when the compressor kicks on it will lower the idle to about 800RPMs. That's high enough for a relatively smooth idle, but it will run on when I turn the key off. If I set the idle to about 800RPMs with the A/C off, when the compressor kicks in it will lower the idle to 5-600 RPMs. That is low enough to minimize the run on, but it's too low to get a smooth idle.
I may end up having to install an "idle up" solenoid for the A/C. Don't want to go there though.
*scratches head*
I did learn these things though-
1)The DGEC is a piece of junk. To do this swap properly, you need to obtain a "genuine Weber" for a MMaxD50 which is a DGEV 32/36 progressive.
2)DGV= manual choke or "cable operated" choke
DGEV= electric choke
DGAV= 'automatic' or coolant operated choke- the DGEVs being more popular because of a simpler install. Just use the same 12v wire that the factory carb used, and plug off the coolant line that went to the Mikuni.
3) Any of the above will work fine, just make sure the Weber trademark is cast into the carb body somewhere. Along with that, it should say 'made in Spain" or "product of Spain" on it too. That's where the "good Webers" are made now as Pennyman pointed out.
I think I am going to end up with another DGEV. I bought one off Ebay brand new at a good price because it was before I talked to Pierce Manifolds in Cali. It was all part of my 2 week learning curve on this. I can keep it for parts or resell it for what I paid for it.
Right now it has a 75 pr idle and 70 sec idle. For a stock 2.6 motor that seems to be in the ballpark.
Still will prolly upgrade from the original mechanical pump to the Carter P4070, but not right now. Not until cooler weather hits.
I'm just glad it's back running.
Where is your timing set, stock by the book is about 5 to 7 deg. if not mistaken try bumping it up to about 10 deg. That is where I m running mine at.
I have tried a couple different settings there too, in fact I've even tried retarding the timing several degrees to ATDC. That hasn't eliminated the run-on (dieseling) when I shut it off either.
I just can't believe no one else has had this same problem with a 2.6 with a genuine Weber. *flummoxed*
The way I understand it (?), the original factory carb had mechanisms inherent in the carb that shut off fuel flow when you turned the key off. Of course, that feature went the way of the original carb.
Years ago when I was doing research on Webers and looking at the choices available, I seem to remember a model of a Weber DGV series that had positive fuel shut off. Am I hallucinating, or does anyone remember that? Or is my wishful thinking getting the better of me?
Do I still have to try different size idle jets?
This is driving me nuts. The problem started with the 2007 'counterfeit' Weber installation, and has not improved.
What am I missing?
All of the surging at low engine speeds is gone, so that alone made the "Spanish Weber" worth it.
Bottom line the truck runs light years better, but still has this nagging "run-on" issue, and it's quite frustrating, to be quite honest.
P.S.- if I shut the engine off cold, it doesn't do it, or it is minimal. Once the motor is up to operating temp, forget it. You have to "pop the clutch" with your foot on the brake to shut the motor off completely.
If your still running the stock pump you're probably over filling the fuel bowl as the stock pump produces to much pressure and is by-passing the needle and seat.This will cause the gas to leak into the intake and cause the engine to get hot fuel that with keep the truck running till its gone.
That makes a ton of sense.
Thinking out loud here...the factory pump puts out 2.8-4.2 psi (factory shop manual) and the Weber only requires 3 psi max.
So is that 1.2 additional psi causing it? Mainly because of the close proximity of the pump to the carb?
A Carter P4070 puts out 3-6 psi of fuel pressure and yet that is not too much pressure?
You can see why I have been so confused on this.
The factory specs on the mechanical pump indicate to me that it's not too much pressure, at least on paper, unless that Weber carb just hates that extra 1.2 psi.
Somebody un-confuse me. LOL
I just don't get how the factory mechanical pump can have the same pressure (or less) than the Carter- yet it is causing this run-on problem I have.
I'm really not getting this...
Usually with a Carter you will run a pressure regulator, though there are people here that aren't and I don't get how they don't have that same issue.
My general assumption is that the factory pump may just be worn enough to lower the output pressure to something the Weber is fine with.
I know everything I've read about Weber carbs as they relate to line pressure is: They are very very picky and even a tiny bit too much pressure will cause issues.
I have a 38/38 and it was suggested perhaps I get a fuel cutoff solenoid off of EBay as mine likes to do the same. I believe it replaces the main jet.
I was wondering the same thing. That has been the "source of my confusion" so to speak.
If a Carter outputs 4-6 psi and the factory mechanical provides even less pressure and folks say they run a Carter w/o a regulator...wait...WUT?!?!?!?!?
Those factory components are incredibly durable if my pump has 345K on it and is still pumping it's ass off to beat the band is all I can say.
I have read many posts by somebody (Pennyman?) that say a pressure reg will burn up the mechanical pump in short order.
Why won't it do that with an electrical pump then?
I was a auto dealer service writer by trade- 20+ years- so I know just enough to get me in trouble. LOL
I have concluded what I have to do. Now that I have gathered all the practical info you guys have given me regarding this, and considering the symptoms, it's obvious what still needs to be done.
I was actually on the right track, as the thread title indicates. I was heading towards an electric pump install when I discovered I had a "counterfeit" Weber. Well that's fixed now. I have a Spanish made Weber sitting on the motor now. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. Practically gives me a woody. HAHAHA
I am going to install a Carter P4070 in conjunction with a Holly 12-804 fuel pressure regulator so that I can limit the line pressure to 2 psi. This is what I learned as part of my learning curve from Jim Inglese, the Weber guru that builds and sells Weber carb setups for Cobra engines. (See link above.) This is the regulator he recommends. If it's good enough for him, it should be good enough for me.
All my symptoms point to Pennyman being right in that the factory mechanical pump is "over-pressurizing" the needle and seat and bleeding raw hot gas into the intake which in turn causes the run-on. In fact, if you watch the motor run from the driver seat with a clear view of the tach, you can practically tell the moment when the motor is being flooded with gas- not to mention the gas mileage is awful. I think I got around 10MPG on the last tank. I should be getting mid-teens in town. Never known as a thrifty motor, the 2.6 should still get around 15 MPG in town. Not earth shattering to be sure, but still better than 10. That really sucks on a vehicle that would be hard pressed to break 20 seconds in the quarter mile. Bwahahahaha.
I have a helping hand here local that can assist me or finish up my rough-in installs of those two components.
The fellow I'm talking about is a Master Ford Gas and diesel dealer tech who started his career on Mitsus who actually did the PDI or dealer prep on my truck for the sales lot when Ol' Reliable was brand new. Yes, the fellow that did the PDI on my truck still works on it when the repair is over my head or the job needs a lift to complete.
No, it's not done yet to my satisfaction, but I know exactly what parts I need...where to mount them...the dos and dont's...etc.
Many thanks to all who have very generous with their experiential knowledge and overall "gearheadedness" LOL
I especially want to thank MoparJA, Pennyman and Acuta73 because their posts were critical pieces of the puzzle that was being put together in my mind.
When I'm done with installing those two components (plus an oil pressure cut off switch) then I can proceed with fine tuning, jetting, etc. No point in doing that stuff until the fuel system has been sorted.
At that point, I will then have the best, smoothest running 2.6 on the planet.
*high fives all around*
I meant to thank Fordubishi also. He was the one who gave me insight to the "overpressurizing" the needle and seat.
I use that exact same setup your going to use and though I don't doubt the word of Jim Inglese, but our trucks are not Cobras. It's nice to hear you took in all the info from ideas here at this forum. That's what we are here for and will be here for. Like I said above, I use the exact setup your headed towards and have run it for a reasonable amount of time. My pump is in the cubby hole like Mopar has shown in his thread and I run my fuel pressure regulator on the left fender well in the engine bay as you will see in my repair thread.
Now, I noticed you said that your going to run your pressure at 2 psi and I have to add this will be low for the weber carb at least in my setup experience. I have opened mine to 3.5 psi and I have not done any type of rejetting at all and live at the 2000 ft. elev. By all means run your own ideas as you take in info here, I just want to add some from my experience. I have had nothing but a good running vehicle since the weber install and that is a common denominator here that we all can agree on.
Every DGV weber carb is the same, but every DGV carb is different. For example, some had to change jets and adjust their carbs. When I first got mine it was perfect right out of the box. Since then I have only made tiny adjustments and rebuilt it once.
Your setup is going in the right direction, but your going to have to do a tweak or two that will make it different from ours and that will be yours.
Returning your ideas to the forum is what makes this forum continuously growing for folks as yourself. Keep us informed, we like to hear good news and always like to help with the bad news.
Runon engines are running backwards by the way, lol.
Now which line did you plan on running the pressure reg. on, because I have thought about this and was thinking that the best way of doing this might be to put a check valve of about 4 to 6 psi on the return fuel line just after carb that way I maintain full gpm to the carb ensuring I have a full float bowl then the check valve would make sure I don't over pressurize the carb by releasing the excess down the return line.
that will work well - are you using a fixed or adlustable one? Most people don't know what a check valve is or what it does - this is a perfect place to use one - it could even be used in place of a pressure reg if it flow well enough to regulate te pressure without losing too much flow.
Pennyman1
The best Dodge that Dodge never made
Living the D-50 lifestyle since 1980
I realize Jim Inglese and his Cobra intakes are are on a different planet than the one we are on. Different planet but same galaxy so to speak-so OTOH, his experience with Webers, be them DCOEs or IDFs is hard to beat. So in my mind, what he recommends carries a bit of weight.I use that exact same setup your going to use and though I don't doubt the word of Jim Inglese, but our trucks are not Cobras. It's nice to hear you took in all the info from ideas here at this forum. That's what we are here for and will be here for. Like I said above, I use the exact setup your headed towards and have run it for a reasonable amount of time. My pump is in the cubby hole like Mopar has shown in his thread and I run my fuel pressure regulator on the left fender well in the engine bay as you will see in my repair thread.
Now, I noticed you said that your going to run your pressure at 2 psi and I have to add this will be low for the weber carb at least in my setup experience. I have opened mine to 3.5 psi and I have not done any type of rejetting at all and live at the 2000 ft. elev. By all means run your own ideas as you take in info here, I just want to add some from my experience. I have had nothing but a good running vehicle since the weber install and that is a common denominator here that we all can agree on.
Every DGV weber carb is the same, but every DGV carb is different. For example, some had to change jets and adjust their carbs. When I first got mine it was perfect right out of the box. Since then I have only made tiny adjustments and rebuilt it once.
Your setup is going in the right direction, but your going to have to do a tweak or two that will make it different from ours and that will be yours.
Returning your ideas to the forum is what makes this forum continuously growing for folks as yourself. Keep us informed, we like to hear good news and always like to help with the bad news.
Runon engines are running backwards by the way, lol.
The Holley 12-804 regulator yields 1-4 psi of line pressure. I am assuming (in other words hope) they are adjustable within that range. But I'll find out before I order one.
I don't see a need to run a return line to be honest. Haven't run one since 2007. Why do I need to reinstall one now?
The P4070 is mounted is the stock filter area. The 12-804 is mounted on the LF underhood area. The stock pump fuel lines are just blocked off and left in place. Uncomplicated is my friend.
I look at it this way. The 2007 retrofit is just half complete. LOL.
Those trucks are very forgiving. You give them fuel, spark and compression and they will run. Maybe not the best, but they'll run. IMO, that's why you'll have so many different configurations of components that will "work".
This should work, and rid me of the nagging drivebility issues that have been present since 2007.
Half of the issues were solved with the installation of the Spanish made Weber.
The other half will be solved by getting that fuel pressure down to where the Weber likes it.
the bigger concern is to be sure the flow rate is high enough. Webers like flow more than pressure, so a higher flow pump with low pressure is better than a higher pressure pump with lower flow. Any pressure reg should not restrict the flow to drop the pressure - the holley reg with return line is one type of reg that will work that way.
Pennyman1
The best Dodge that Dodge never made
Living the D-50 lifestyle since 1980
If it was me I would buy all fixed say like one each 4,5,6 psi check valve try them all out and see which one runs the best I also would not exceed the actual fuel return line size of 1/4 inch just to make sure. Adjustable just means more moving parts too "FAIL" just like IFS 4x4 vs Solid axle. more moving parts, more chances to break which = WEAKER and More Expensive.
I just got off the phone with StreetsideAuto. and the fellow I talked to said that the Holly regulator was adjustable within the 1-4 psi range. In other words, I can dial in exactly 3 psi of pressure.
I don't see why that would not work.
Install the Carter in the back, and install the pressure reg in the LF underhood area. Dial in 3 psi of pressure and voila!
Plenty of flow with a limit of 3 psi of pressure.
Why would this not work?
Not trying to be snarky, but honestly why wouldn't this work?
That is exactly correct. 1-4 psi is what they dial in at. I use a mini gauge on mine to check the psi. Though it doesn't have 4x4 moving parts in it, lol. Set it and forget it.
gauge.jpg
I ordered a P4070 Carter pump and a 12-804 Holly pressure regulator from StreetsideAuto.com- 104.00 bucks and some change.
There is a nut on the reg to adjust the pressure. I may add a mini-guage like Brad has to dial in the correct pressure.
The thing is going to run better than new by the time I'm done.
A buddy just gave me a Holly regulator with a Tee for the gauge and plug where your gauge is. I like that and now know what to do with it.
Otay I recieved the Carter 4070 and Holley 12-804 from StreetsideAuto.com- I ordered them Wed. or so and they were on my doorstep Fri. Super prompt shipping for only 10.00 bucks. They are awesome.
I spoke with my wrench Dean P. and I told him I would do the "rough install" of the components and I would let him finish the install plumbing and wiring. He just said KEWL. You see he had bought a base model MM at the same time I bought my SPX, so he "gets it". He wishes he still had his. LOL.
Slowly but surely this project that I started back in 2007 is going to be completed properly.
I'm going to borrow Pennyman's(?) idea and fabricate a mounting location using the bed mounts near the filter for the pump and use the LF inner fender to mount the reg. Just plug off the mechanical pump fuel lines and leave it in place. The main incoming fuel line from the tank will go to the reg instead of the carb. Then just dial in the proper psi. Simple really.
This will be the blueprint for doing it properly.
The real underlying benefit of these trucks is that they are so dirt cheap to operate. Not to mention the fact that for all practical purposes, with just minimal maintenance, they'll last forever.
As a former Harley-Davidson owner, it has been said many times that even as an inanimate object, an HD has a "soul."
My Ol' Reliable does too, I think.
I have all the parts and the "materials" needed for the electric fuel pump install- (I also picked up a mini fuel pressure gauge from StreetsideAuto). I just need to find somebody to install all of this stuff. I think I have found a tech who also used to work at the local Mitsu dealer. He also has a MM. My kind of guy. LOL. The parts dept. mgr knows how picky I am with who wrenches on Ol' Reliable and he gave the dude a ringing endorsement. He'll be at the beach this weekend, but as per our phone convo this morning, I'll call him when he gets back. Told him what I was doing and he said no problem, he could hook me up. I need to figure out a way to keep this throttle cable more secure. (Or I'll leave it up to him to figure out how to do it.) I could kick myself for throwing out that original carburetor. I read the thread where somebody had used the bellcrank off the original Mikuni for rigging the throttle cable on the Weber...but I chunked it at the time I did the first Weber install. Dang it.
One of these days the Weber install that I started back in 2007 will be complete. Takes me forever to get stuff done- but when it's done IT'S RIGHT.
I picked up a windshield molding and a RR tail light lens from Mitsu too. I have plans on replacing the windshield- it's sand pitted bad from age/mileage.
I could have gotten a used taillight lens from a boneyard, but at a little over 40 bucks for the assembly, I sez to myself "Self, just get a new one."Plus I will bet you that most of them (90% easy) in the junkyards are from base model trucks that have black trim around them not chrome like the SPX has.
I think I may also start collecting those body side moldings that are unique to the SPX. That is another part that I'll bet will become impossible to find in the years to come. They only came on the SPX too.
OK guys- here's where we're at.
I don't have the electric pump installed yet due to my circumstances. To wit...
This has been a serious learning curve for me- but what I have learned will benefit all- even those who have done the retrofit to the Weber.
There are many combinations of components that will "work" in other words the truck will run when you are done, but the question is how well.
Much of my confusion was due to simple ignorance of certain aspects of the World of Weber, and marketing hype that comes with companies wanting you to purchase their product. For example, just about any site that sells the Carter P4070 electric pump will say in the description of the product that "no fuel pressure regulator needed". That's only partially true IMO. You may not need a reg for most applications, but if you are feeding fuel to a Weber carb, you definitely need to get the fuel pressure down below 3 psi. As I mentioned earlier, my factory shop manual says the factory mechanical pump will yield 2.4-4.2 psi output pressure. Acuta73 stated that he had read or heard that the Webers really don't like anything over 3 psi. They get fussy and tempermental over 3 psi. My own experience has shown this to be true. My experience has also shown me that my factory mechanical pump is still pumping it's ass of with 350K. That is the nature of a lot of original parts on my truck- they just last forever w/o wearing out. In doing my due diligence and research on this, I mentioned that I read on Jim Inglese's website that he only recommends the Holley 12-804 pressure reg. And while it's true that he does intakes and Webers for Cobras, that doesn't change the fact that Webers- whether it's an IDF, DGV, DCOE will all benefit from fuel pressure that is limited to 3 psi. Those carbs are all the same basic design- what holds true for one model will hold true for all.
All that said, I have to admit that I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that within the past week I realized how much of a dumb-ass I have been about that return line. I thought that I didn't need one. Since 2007 when I installed the counterfeit Weber, the return line back to tank was just plugged off. Well, this week I hooked it up properly to the "real" Weber. Even after the fuel bowl was full, the mechanical pump would still be pumping more fuel into the bowl- the result was unmetered fuel getting dumped into the motor. (My last tank of fuel yielded 13.0 MPG.) Yikes.
I've not calculated the MPGs since I hooked up the return line, but it should be better-in the mid to upper teens. (It runs better, put it that way.) Getting the electric pump and reg should get me to 20 or so. The window sticker says 23 city/28 highway, so 20 MPG city in the real world should be just about where it will calculate to.
I realize that a lot of what I have read here is simple "trial and error". I have tried to take what everyone has said, and balance that with my own life experience of how long and how many miles I have used the vehicle as my daily driver. I consider Jim Inglese and expert on Webers, so his opinion carries a lot of weight with me. The Holley 12-804 is the only pressure reg that he recommends. Common sense leads me to believe that Holley saw the sales potential of a pressure reg that is tailor made for the Mikuni to Weber retrofits (and any other Weber applications for that matter.)
ALL THAT SAID- it is becoming harder and harder to to find shops who will work with you on this. They don't want to install the parts that you've bought- they want to source parts from wholesalers whereas they get the markup- instead of StreetsideAuto.com getting the markup on parts. Hell I'll even throw them a few more bucks on the labor to make up for it. They don't see it that way though. *sigh*
Bottom line I have not found a person yet to do the install. I know what works, but I have to either find a person who does work on the side, or find a shop who will do the install to my instructions and wishes. I borrowed the idea from Pennyman (I think) of mounting the pump near the bed mount at the filter location. Because it made sense to me that electric pumps "push" fuel and mechanicals "pull" fuel. I went to Town and Country Hardware (they used to be an Ace Hardware until very recently) and got a piece of sheet steel to fab up a mount. A local steel fabricator cut it to the proper size for 10 bucks. Coffee fund money he called it. LOL
So my question to my MM internet buddies is will this not work? Through my own laziness, and the fact that I have just been so slow in getting this done PROPERLY, is why I am so late to this party.
Of course, I can wait for the mechanical to wear a little more and the pressure would be in the middle of 2.4 and 4.2, right where the Weber would like it, but as you can see, I am beginning to think I'll be dead and buried before that happens.
Thoughts?
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