Facet electric fuel pump?

[originalowner]

Upon my last thread concerning the jet valve elimination kit and how and if it could benefit me, I read a couple of posts from learned, well versed users that convinced me that the stock mechanical pump was delivering too much gas at low engine speeds with the Weber conversion- causing a myriad of small but nagging driveability issues including dieseling/run on after shut off and low speed engine surging in the lower gears. It all makes sense, so you sold me on the long overdue upgrade to an external electric pump.

To make a long story short, I went to the local CarQuest parts store to get a Carter #108-P4070 because that seemed to be the consensus choice, even though I saw a few users who had success with other brands of pumps including Holley and AC-Delco.

(CarQuest is a pretty big parts store chain in my area. Even though most of their marketing thrust is franchised dealers, independents, and other full service facilities, they do sell retail over the counter too.) Plus they have a location 2 blocks from my house. So that's where I went.

I explained to the nice chap behind the counter what I was doing to what kind of vehicle and he said he did not have the Carter P4070, but what he did have was a universal pump that he was sure would fit my needs- it was a universal pump manufactured by Facet. They are a U.S. based company that is joined at the hip with Purolator.

The one I held in my hand was a model # CPF41500. 4-7 PSI with 35 GPH. In other words the closest thing to to the P4070 but at about half of the flow. 35GPH seemed more than enough flow for my stock engine with no planned mods. I just want a smooth stocking running engine.

Howeva...the CarQuest website lists a couple of other Facet pump choices, one of which is a 1.5-4 PSI at 30GPH. The pumps can be seen in the upper right corner of this PDF.

http://www.myvirtualpaper.com/doc/ca...1/355.html#354

So it occurs to me that the 4-7 PSI model would be best mounted near the stock filter under the bed. (Which is what I had planned to do.) But it seems to me the 1.5-4 PSI model could be mounted under hood in the left front fender well area. (In the neighbor hood of the coil or original "ECU". I prefer to do it that way because as a multiple stroke victim that makes life easier for me.

So will the 1.5-4 PSI model provide adequate fuel delivery at my preferred under hood location? I don't see why it wouldn't. In fact, it looks tailor-made for the Weber which only requires 2-2.5 PSI of pressure.

Over pressurizing the Weber needle and seat is a valid concern, so wouldn't the 4-7 PSI model stand a chance of doing the same thing? Albeit less severe?

I want to fix these nagging problems for good, and I cannot overemphasize the fact that this motor will never be modded for more HP. Not.gonna.happen.

So what think ye? As always, many thanks for your input, and looking forward to your responses. You guys are great!

P.S.- the Facet pumps are 67.00 bucks, so they are right in the ballpark cost wise when compared to the Carter...

[Fordubishi]

It still needs to be placed close to the tank. Electric fuel pumps "Push" fuel from the tank where as mecanical pumps "pull" fuel. you would have to read the instructions for the best place for it. I used one of those on an old Ranger 2.3L I put it on the frame rail below the tank just tied into the stock line.

[originalowner]

It still needs to be placed close to the tank. Electric fuel pumps "Push" fuel from the tank where as mecanical pumps "pull" fuel. you would have to read the instructions for the best place for it. I used one of those on an old Ranger 2.3L I put it on the frame rail below the tank just tied into the stock line.

Thanks man.

OK, that makes sense. You sold me on the placement location near the tank right near where the filter is located. That nice open spot underhood had me in "wishful thinking mode.

So which of the two models (1.5-4 PSI vs. 4-7 PSI) is a better choice then? Again, no future engine mods are planned.

The factory mechanical pump is 2.8-4.2 PSI/20-29 kPa discharge pressure. I am getting that straight from the 89 factory shop manual that I have.

I really don't want to "overpressure" the Weber anymore, that is the reason for this exercise to be honest and it seems to me that the 4-7 PSI model will possibly (probably?) do that.

I doubt the pump could be exchanged after it had been installed...so I'm looking for the best educated guess here.

[Fordubishi]

go with the 1.5-4 psi, 30gph will be fine. A stock mechanical fuel pump for a Ford 302 only puts out 28gph (at 7psi) and the Weber only needs around 3psi.

[BradMph]

Carter P4070 for $59.32
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/par...3152-fuel-pump


Carter P4070 for $60.00
though the picture is showing a generic fuel pump model.
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/cart...FSjZQgoddhoAHQ

Carter P4070 for $61.00
http://www.niftyinterior.com/157_page_912665.htm

[pennyman1]

the problem with the facet is the flow rate - it is too low for maximum benefit of the Weber. Webers like high flow more than high pressure. That is also the reason that putting a pressure reg inline with a weber causes problems - it restricts flow and pressure.

[mopar_ja]

Carter P4070 for $59.32
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/par...3152-fuel-pump


Carter P4070 for $60.00
though the picture is showing a generic fuel pump model.
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/cart...FSjZQgoddhoAHQ

Carter P4070 for $61.00
http://www.niftyinterior.com/157_page_912665.htm

I second this one, it is what I am running on my 2.6 no regulator no return line, you just adjust the carb jets accordingly "done". See "my fuel pump install under performance upgrades of forum, its stickied.

[originalowner]

Carter P4070 for $59.32
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/par...3152-fuel-pump


Carter P4070 for $60.00
though the picture is showing a generic fuel pump model.
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/cart...FSjZQgoddhoAHQ

Carter P4070 for $61.00
http://www.niftyinterior.com/157_page_912665.htm

That point is well taken.

But let me put it this way- I think sometimes I am speaking a different language because I have such a different perspective here.

I don't mean that in a bad way...hear me out...

This motor will never be modified in any way. Never. As I said before, it is not gonna happen. It is factory bone stock other than the Weber. (And the disconnection of all that vacuum shit that comes with the Weber install of course.)

The reason the truck has a Weber is because the original carb finally took a dump (at around 280,000 or thereabouts)...the only choice I had was to retrofit a Weber because of the limited success of rebuilding the stock feedback carb. At the time it was used as a daily driver for an outside sales job I had at the time.

In the interest of getting the thing on the road as quickly as possible (the job was 100% commission) I installed the Weber and left the factory mechanical pump in place. This was back in June of 2007. It ran fine but at times flooded on a warm restart (right when it started you could see the black smoke out the tailpipe), would run on after the key was turned off, and at times also surge badly at low engine speeds in the lower gears. I just want to rid myself of these nagging driveability problems. Out of those, the 'running on' is what I want to rid myself of for good. I just want to shut it off by turning the key off, and not have to pop the clutch whilst it is in gear. (I do it in 5th gear as opposed to 1st to lessen the shock on the drivetrain.)

For all the bashing the factory carbs get, the truck ran fine, practically "EFI smooth" with it on. Not to mention I could just turn the key off to shut the dang thing off. That is all I want.

Furthermore, if changing the factory mechanical fuel pump to a Carter electric pump is not going to "change" anything, I am like why bother?

I am a true car guy to the core, but I just want driveability that approaches the original set-up. No running on when shut off, no surging, etc.

I am on SS disability because of a couple of strokes I suffered in the fall of 2008.

If anything, the symptons I get are from getting too much gas, and not from getting not enough. I think this is born out with my MPG-

200 miles per tank?!? When I use to get close to 300 or more?!?!

See what I'm saying? My perspective is unique here, so I'm asking for advice that is geared to my own personal perspective.

I understand this is an enthusiast website, but my enthusiasm for Ol' Reliable lies in the fact that it has been a trusted friend for 345,000 miles and 25 years. I bought it new, and just want to keep it going with minimal fuss like I always have.

See what I'm saying?

[mopar_ja]

"If anything, the symptoms I get are from getting too much gas, and not from getting not enough". That is what I thought as well, from all the research I did for my weber (any type of hesitation or stumble) is a lack of fuel. I know its unconventional thinking but weber's do not operate like a conventional carb. The primary circuit controls all the fuel from idle to about 2500 rpms then the high side takes over.

[originalowner]

"If anything, the symptoms I get are from getting too much gas, and not from getting not enough". That is what I thought as well, from all the research I did for my weber (any type of hesitation or stumble) is a lack of fuel. I know its unconventional thinking but weber's do not operate like a conventional carb. The primary circuit controls all the fuel from idle to about 2500 rpms then the high side takes over.

Hmmmm...thinking out loud again...

The 70gph from the Carter pump is not too much gas for the Weber, and yet the 4-6 psi of pressure it yields is not too much even though the factory mechanical pump yields less...

I have now crossed the threshold into being totally confused...

[mopar_ja]

Nope, been running mine with no return line or regulator does just fine. It took me about 3 wks to tune my weber changing jet after jet buy more jets change again. Trust me I was really confused, frustrated with it because I was thinking old school holley, Rochester, quadrajet style tuning and it is almost completely backwards to that when tuning a weber.

[mopar_ja]

Here's link to my Weber tuning experience, what a bitch it was: http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...r-weber-tuning

[pennyman1]

I have been running a similar Holley electric fuel pump with 65 gph and 7 PSI on Geronimo for 15 years now, and a Mallory at 4 PSI 50 GPH before that. I started out with the Facet pump, but on a properly jetted Weber, he didn't run anywhere near as good as he does now with the Holley pump. I do understand your confusion, and we are not ignoring your questions, but just want you to benefit from our experiences with what works best. Either pump will get your truck to run, which one you choose is up to you.

[BradMph]

345,000 miles, Your trusted friend maybe telling you it needs work in some way. My friend had 275k+ owned since 87 and finally asked for work to be done. Pumping fuel into the oil thru rings, burning rich, hard starts and good compression. You have an incredible amount of miles on your ole friend I am jealous to say. Though your compression may be good, it won't be long before your friend just says no!, forget it, I can't do it anymore.

Have faith in us here, we are only doing our best with what we have experienced with our own trucks. Some of us have owned our trucks for many many years and been thru many issues with them. Things will get figured out and usually do, between your own ideas about your own truck and help from others here with their trucks. You have some of the best and most knowledgeable Mitsubishi owners here and everyone is ready to help.

[originalowner]

345,000 miles, Your trusted friend maybe telling you it needs work in some way. My friend had 275k+ owned since 87 and finally asked for work to be done. Pumping fuel into the oil thru rings, burning rich, hard starts and good compression. You have an incredible amount of miles on your ole friend I am jealous to say. Though your compression may be good, it won't be long before your friend just says no!, forget it, I can't do it anymore.

Have faith in us here, we are only doing our best with what we have experienced with our own trucks. Some of us have owned our trucks for many many years and been thru many issues with them. Things will get figured out and usually do, between your own ideas about your own truck and help from others here with their trucks. You have some of the best and most knowledgeable Mitsubishi owners here and everyone is ready to help.

I can appreciate what you're saying, I really do.

Yeah that's a lot of miles, but those are some of the most well maintained miles on the planet. I have changed the oil and filter faithfully every 3000 miles since day one- several times I did go more than several hundred miles over 3000...rarely more than a thousand. In all those years and miles- if you divide 345K by 3k, you get 115 oil changes-my records show I've done 99.

As a dealer service adviser for many different makes over the years, I have seen my share of high-mileage cars. The common thread for all of them was a fastidious maintenance history. The service records for this truck fill a one inch binder.

I get what you're saying about the motor being worn- for most vehicles. This truck is not in the category of "most vehicles" though.

In reading all these responses, I am starting to conclude that this thing just needs to be handed over to a Weber carb specialist for some fine tuning. The factory mechanical pump is not providing too much pressure or not enough volume...the Weber just needs some tweaking. It remains in the "out of the box" state of tune.

A couple of hours of labor by somebody who really knows these carbs will work wonders for it, I have come to believe...

P.S. You guys are an extremely helpful bunch, and I truly appreciate all of your inputs.

[mopar_ja]

Let us know what your tuning is for info purposes. For other folks that might run into same scenario, and remember to error on the side caution better to be a little rich than too lean and burn a valve.

[originalowner]

Let us know what your tuning is for info purposes. For other folks that might run into same scenario, and remember to error on the side caution better to be a little rich than too lean and burn a valve.

I was going to take it in to a local independent shop but I went to a plan 'B' instead. I ordered a jet assortment from Ebay. 60.00 bucks and be here Mon. or Tues.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WEBER-Redlin...ed7a15&vxp=mtr

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it has a horribly lean condition that is due to the 'out of the box' lean jetting of the Weber. You have to figure those carbs are lean jetted to the max for over the counter sales due to EPA regs. The instructions will lead you to believe the carbs don't need to be tuned...HARDY HAR HAR... In fact that's what the instructions say- they are calibrated at the factory and there is no need to mess will the calibration. WHAT A LAUGH.

I also read an article by Jim Inglese explaining how the thing works and the basics of tuning them. What a piece of cake. As easy as falling off a log backwards. LOL

A dozen different idle jet sizes and I just happen to get the magic formula of correct jet sizes in mine.Yeah right...

The idle circuit is doing the work during 80% of routine driving, and that is where the symptoms occur, during low speed operation...anything over 2000-2500 RPMS and the mains take over. This link is awesome. Keep hitting 'next' all the way to the end and you will see some of the coolest Weber set ups he has done for Cobra V-8s and so on. WOW.

http://jiminglese.com/weber5_005.htm

By this time next week it will be purring like a kitten...

[originalowner]

In looking back at how it is now in the out of the box lean condition...it should not take 19 full turns out of the idle mixture screw before it begins to stumble...ROFL...

In reading that article by Jim it should only take one full turn out or else it needs to be richenend up a tad...

[mopar_ja]

That's a good article, and there were only two areas of my weber I did not screw with the emulsion tubes and accelerator pump, those are both as they were from factory. Yeah I could probably get a finer tune if I changed those, but I got down good enough with just changing jets.

[originalowner]

That's a good article, and there were only two areas of my weber I did not screw with the emulsion tubes and accelerator pump, those are both as they were from factory. Yeah I could probably get a finer tune if I changed those, but I got down good enough with just changing jets.

I don't even think I'll have to mess with main jets- just feddle with the idle jets.

The leanest idle jet listed on Weber Direct you can buy for a DGEV is a 40. The one I had out of the box for the primary was/is 47.5

The kit comes with a 65, a 70 and a 75. LOL

I didn't drive much because of medical reasons for the past several years, but I'm like holy shit this thing is going to run better than it has in the last several years!

[mopar_ja]

(I don't even think I'll have to mess with main jets- just feddle with the idle jets.) you hope but I would bet if the idle jets were leaned out so are probably the mains and air correctors as well, since the whole carb was set up to run lean.

[originalowner]

(I don't even think I'll have to mess with main jets- just feddle with the idle jets.) you hope but I would bet if the idle jets were leaned out so are probably the mains and air correctors as well, since the whole carb was set up to run lean.

I'm sure you are correct on that- but I'm also thinking if Inglese is correct and the idles do 80% of the lifting at low speed...wishful thinking for sure but I'm also pretty sure that new idle jets will correct 80% of the symptoms. They are almost exclusively low engine speed.

Looking forward to messing with it.

You're initial post regarding jetting was my light bulb moment. It just dawned on me how lean that truck was running when I pulled a jet out and it was a 47.5. PATHETIC.

Now that I think of it, I think it runs a tad warmer than it should because it's overly lean.

Sure it won't hurt a bit to bump up the richness a setting or two.

Driving me nuts waiting for the kit to show up.

[mopar_ja]

Always waiting on parts is the hard part, when they do Christmas in July!!!

[originalowner]

Always waiting on parts is the hard part, when they do Christmas in July!!!

This story is moving into tragedy at a rapid pace.

After several phone calls to Jim Inglese, Weber Direct, Pierce Manifolds in California, I understand I do not have a Weber carb. I do, but I don't. It was Mike at Pierce Manifolds that cleared this up for me. This is worthwhile knowledge for everyone.

The carburetor that I bought from WeberDirect back in 2007 is not a Weber. Nowhere is the Weber name or logo on the carb anywhere. The key was in the model # of the carb- on the invoice and the carb itself is the model 34 DGEC. That is stamped on the baseplate casting also. Thing is WEBER NEVER MADE THAT MODEL CARB. In my mind, it is a carb that was licensed for manufacture by Weber or whatever...BUT IT IS NOT A Weber. It was made in Argentina or SlingShit Asia or somewhere...who the fuck knows?

This explains a hell of a lot- mainly why the hell the primary jet does not separate from the jet holder. I mangled one pretty good trying to get the fucking thing apart. It ain't fucking happening, I suspect they are one piece, and do not come apart. FUCK ME IN THE ASS WITH A HOT POKER. Fuuuuuck...

I need to source a K-611 conversion kit and carb and end this saga that started in June 2007.

Shit...FUCK...dammit...

[originalowner]

Aight...here's the dilly-

I ordered an entire new carb from Pierce Manifold in California- a kit #K610 which should yield me a 34 DCEV. That is the genuine Weber version of the 34 DCES that I bought in June 2007.

I may get lucky and the jet holders will screw right into the old carb. I can hope... If not, I'll just have to swap out the carb, which shouldn't be that bad. *crosses fingers* (I only mention that because the LR mounting nut is a PURE-T mother fucker to remove.) I have fought that thing several times and had to give up. If the carb has to be swapped out, I'm going to heat that fucker with a small propane torch that I have and hope that does the trick. Other than that one nut, it's a piece of cake.

I'll keep you all posted. LOL

Dam I hope those jet holders just swap out...The guy at Pierce could give me no clue as to if they would. He had no idea. One bright spot- he sold me the carb for 213.00 plus shipping for all the trouble I've been through seeing that the DCEC carb was misrepresented to me as a genuine Weber back in 2007...